Yet the assets for the dungeons ARE used for the entire expansion. The second you set foot in Naxx 10 (a VERY easy raid) you never looked at something like The Nexus again. All those art assets are seen per player like…4 or 5 times tops per character. 1-2 times while leveling and then you random it a couple times and never set foot in a dungeon again. Never see it for the remaining 20 months+ of the expansion.
i think she may be asking for more choice, having more options on content is always a good thing so that different people can have things to do that is fun and challenging
but i understand what you are saying, i remember some of those long dungeons…
This was not true in Wrath. One of the best tank swords in the game when Wrath launched dropped of the last boss of Heroic UP, a 200 ilvl epic, same as Naxx 10 gear. Also we had justice and valor badges that could be obtained in the Wrath dungeons. On top of that you could farm rep by equipping a tabard and spamming those same heroics. While they did becomes faceroll easy after a while, I remember running those heroics for badges/rep the whole expansion.
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If Mythics are suppose to be the more difficult dungeon runs, why are they allowing you to enter at 285 while roadblocking heroics at 305?
… That has existed well before M+, that exists in random heroics even. Those people are going to exist no matter what you do.
Also, if you are doing M+ you HAVE to have a premade group. If you don’t want that experience than make some friends and do it together as friends.
That’s a pretty large exaggeration. Sure, the +3 may be gone but the base timers are pretty generous.
I can agree with that, honestly with LFD and LFR. Crank those difficulties up a bit, they have gotten pretty darn easy over the years. Though, to see this said in a thread complaining about difficulty is kinda silly.
And M+ is how that was done. Without M+ dungeon content would be like any other previous expansion, immediately irrelevant come the next patch cycle with the exception of any new dungeons introduced.
You can… You can choose to do your key or another persons key. You can choose not to do M+ and instead do normal Mythic or Heroic. You have choices, you are choosing to ignore them because its not exactly what you want.
Again, bit of an exaggeration. One wipe is not going to cost you the timer unless you are preforming very poorly for the level of key you are doing.
Except nothing is stopping you from stopping and discussing it, learning, and then doing better the next time you get this dungeon. Its not like you will never see that dungeon again and in time you will learn it.
Most groups know these dungeons by heart at this point, you learn and apply to future runs. This single specific run is not the only time you will ever see the dungeon ever!
Again, cool, you have that ability. You can find specific keys if you are looking to target a specific piece.
That’s like saying “I want LFR loot to be relevant as a Mythic raider!” Increased difficulty comes with increased rewards that you get for pushing higher and harder. That is the progression of things. If you don’t want a timer, normal Mythic is where your progression ends because you choose not to accept and partake in the higher content.
There is literally nothing stopping that from happening, you simply don’t want to push the higher content because it requires a higher level of skill, reaction, and focus. Don’t try to make this about not being able to play with others when all post your argument has been that you don’t personally want it to be fast.
Then find and form a group of your own, make some friends with your same mindset, find a guild with your same mindset and set your own pace.
“Give me back my dungeons!”
Excuse you? You mean like in previous expansions where as the expansion progressed less and less people did dungeons for gear and they were rarely relevant come the middle of an expansion? Where people only did them for their daily badges, or quest?
Dungeons are far more relevant than ever before and you are trying to spin it as if they have less relevance.
The problem is not the dungeon system, the problem is unfortunately you. Find people, socialize, and find others who have you shared mindset and play at a level that you are comfortable in. Not everyone is meant to complete the highest end content. Romanticizing dungeons of the past as being more than what they have ever been though is just wrong because midway through an expansion they quickly became irrelevant with the exception of Vanilla and TBC where they were part of the core progression path.
With that said, you will be pleased to know there is a new Mega Dungeon coming in 8.2 and honestly, I would not mind seeing more of them in general. That will fulfill the 5 man raid mentality of a slowed down experience you are seeking while providing good rewards.
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The Point ->.
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You->.
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Ah, classy. Delightful spam ya got there. Really, top quality response. You sure showed me!
Sorry I don’t just blindly agree with you, my dude. If you can’t handle criticism and have to respond like a child throwing a temper tantrum because someone disagrees, breaks down, and counter argues your post then maybe the public forums are not for you and posts like this would be better suited on a personal blog or facebook page.
Looking at your other responses in this thread though…
and general attitude, I don’t know why I am surprised.
So that leaves the question. Do you actually wan’t a discussion, or are you looking for an echo chamber of yesmen to agree with you while you belittle, troll, or spam anyone who disagrees or counter-argues your posts?
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See, your problem is that you haven’t read any of the discussion or my many followup posts. You just jumped in dribbling about wanting free stuff for no effort and other baseless stuff. If you had actually taken the time you’d have seen I’ve been discussing it quite openly.
Alas, you like many other people don’t bother reading and just jump in blindly with your opinion, assuming things that aren’t true and generally coming off as arrogant.
The 2 posts you quoted were responses to people, like yourself, who hadn’t read what I said and were replying to things that didn’t exist. I mean, you even dribbled about me needing to find friends when I’ve already stated at least twice that I do regularly run +'s with my guild of 14 years.
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It still wasn’t challenging, and anyway that’s their entire point. The only dungeons that can be run as is without affixes or timers are already outgeared by the time you hit 120. They want a dungeon equivalent to +20 or something (but without affixes) that can be run outside of the M+ system. Which I think is not a terrible idea.
As an oldschool player I agree. I miss the days when it was just normal dungeons graduating to heroics and saving up tokens for gear for starting into raids.
Now with all the tiers it is just confusing and off-putting to new players and older ones like me. Normal raids, Heroic Raids, Mythic Raids, LFR, how many versions do we need?
Then the Mythic thing with all the +Numbers…
Just seems unnecessarily complicated and I hate the whole rush through everything cheese the mechanics mindset that has taken over dungeons as it is. ):
Also, from another conversation: “If you want more challenge how about roll a healer?”
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OP said it all beautifully. I couldn’t agree any less or have said it better myself.
You got me. I didn’t actually read any of the posts in this thread. I just used the magical forum quote genie, known as Crabby, to randomly grab quotes and make a response.
Obviously didn’t read anything even though each of my posts were in plain response to you including the last one. Its amazing what the new and improved Crabby forum buddy can do.
So kinda like your rose tinted post about how dungeons were better in the past, how you want dungeons to be “relevant” again in a time when they are far more relevant than they have ever been?
Tell me, exactly what expansion model do you want back? What expansion dungeon format do you want to see WoW return to that makes “dungeons” more relevant than they are now? You made a wildly vague post on how they are not relevant anymore but neglected to give any examples on when they were relevant. The biggest point you argued was the timer with a very minor touch of “not ccing” anymore (Which, is false by the way. CC is still used even in M+ in certain situations to make encounters easier)
I have taken the time. You have been discussing it pretty openly with those who have a neutral view or agree with you while, as I quoted a few of them, bashed anyone who didn’t blindly agree. Making posts like this newest example you just happened to hand me right here.
Which at this point is just coming off as self imposing really.
Again, as I just called out, anyone who disagreed with you.
Also, if I was…
Where did the quotes themselves come from if they don’t exist???
Things are kinda getting spooky now. Maybe the forums are haunted… I got my eye on the ghost crab to be honest, probably gained sentience… Just look at those eyes…
And as I stated, maybe you need to find different friends with the same slower mindset who go at their own pace and forgo the M+ timers, or M+ all together in favor of slower paced content. Its pretty obvious though that you don’t like that response as seen in this thread.
This is the path of progression however, and I even stated that–
Which caters more towards you mindset and playstyle, even following it up with…
But, as you just said I just pull stuff out of nowhere and dribble on with my illiteracy since, as you have stated multiple times, myself and anyone else who disagrees with your points or makes counter arguments can not read.
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I love healing but here’s my take on running mythics with some friends in Legion…
Everyone is running around as fast as possible, cutting as many corners as possible so that they can beat a timer to get another key. And while that challenges me as a healer because I have to basically make up for the fact that nobody is CCing anything, DPS are being forced to deal with their own threat, the tank is just chain pulling everything they can without any concern for what that may mean for everyone else, and all of them are self proclaiming to be having a blast and that it’s such a challenge despite the only reason they are even getting close to being successful is because I’m healing like a damn pro.
So yeah, Mythics are challenging if you are a healer and your team is all “gogogogogo”, but I can’t see any of it being fun or challenging if it wasn’t such a clusterpuck, and my party was actually doing things that would make everyone’s life easier, like CCing and focus firing down key targets.
That said, I’d love to get back that classic dungeon crawl. That experience is why I had continued to play WoW all of these years. It’s a shame that it’s been replaced with speed running mechanics where the only challenge comes from having to deal with the insanity of the party that just wants to thrive on the chaos of the moment rather than thoughtful and planned strategy and tactics.
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LOL. Man, I’ve seen your kind running on 14 years now. “People who aren’t pro like me don’t deserve X because it’s too easy.”
I’ve seen raiders talk this way about dungeon-crawlers.
I’ve seen arena PVPers talk this way about BG PVPers.
I’ve seen regular raiders talk this way about LFR.
I’ve seen mythic raiders talk this way about normal/herioic raiders.
And now I’m treated to this BS.
Let me give you some unsolicited advice, in the spirit of Christmas: don’t mess with other people’s fun, because the more people you drive from the game by having an elitist attitude, the smaller the playerbase gets, and the less quality gets put into the game. If people want a return to “normal” dungeons, where the mobs have more health and hit harder and yes DOES require CC - because without out it the group will be utterly wrecked - then WHAT DOES THAT MATTER TO YOU?
The correct answer is, “it doesn’t.” Because you got your progression your way; and someone else got their progression their way; and both of you had fun and felt like you accomplished something. And isn’t that what it’s all about?
Merry Christmas!
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I hate trash so I guess I’m part of the ‘go go go’ mentality. However, I do agree that the timer makes the dungeon less fun. As a tank, I like to test myself to see how fast I can go. As you gear up, you can take on a higher load and I think that sort of progression is cool. You can move faster, collect more mobs, etc. Then, if you’re skilled, you can do all of that at a lower ilvl and that’s pretty cool too to develop into someone more capable.
As a DPS, it’s cool to see how fast you can cleave a bunch of adds. Watch the numbers pile up. As a healer, it’s pretty cool to be able to handle stressful situations like a boss.
These are things you don’t really get (at least I don’t) when you move slow.
The timer does make it anti-climactic because if you mess up for pushing yourself as a player, your entire group is punished and that’s a buzzkill.
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Just do the harder keys and it is a lot slower.
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Very well said. I think from a business standpoint Blizzard might want to take heed. I can speak only for myself, but that hectic madness of the moment that is rush-the-clock Mythics is 100% the reason I completely skipped them last expansion, and will probably this one as well. What this ultimately equates to is that once I am done with quest content and maybe some low level LFR just for story stuff I will probably unsub again just like last time.
If Blizzard wants to keep collecting monthly checks for longer they need to realize they cannot market a time-release subscription game to a minority of players that want to YOLO content like the current Mythic system.
Keep it if it appeals to that demographic but don’t make it all there is and don’t make it the focus. The same could be said about PVP. This is and has always been an RPG first. PVP was far better when it was Battlegrounds and select world locations and PVP servers. Making it the focus in a game where 80% of the loyal base is RPG story fans just ensures you will continue to hemorrhage long-term subscribers and supporters of the franchise. People that do fan art and attend Blizzcon, etc.
I mean you have Overwatch, and there are dozens of PVP games on the market as it is. Do we really need to go knee-jerking an RPG game into yet ANOTHER one?
Already it has led to arguably the most uninspired and ham-fisted war crime simulator faction war ‘story’ in recent memory. “Ra ra rage PVP!” B.O.R.I.N.G.
Also the wisdom of devoting a multi billion dollar monthly sub RPG franchise to minority demographics in both cases really needs to be called into question. Again I can only speak for myself and the few friends and family I know who have played for a decade or more, but I seriously doubt the majority of long-term WoW RPG fans, fans of the STORY that has been WoW, can really be having all that much fun with this new timer-chasing dungeon paradigm.
I say bring back the token system and rid yourself of the toxicity that is hyper-competitive Casino RNG. Maybe make gearing up slightly quicker if you get lucky grinding Mythics but keep the token systems that existed for pretty much every expansion since TBC. Save up currency from heroic equivalent difficulty bosses in dungeons and buy low-level entry raid gear from vendors. It worked and there was no reason to alienate the majority of players just to cater to a competition/exclusivity crowd.
People need to get over the obsession with needing others to not have something to appreciate what they have. It is not a behavior that should be encouraged as it is already rampant in society, which is most certainly the worse for it. There HAS to be a better way of motivating people, or a way for all players to achieve a relative level of gearing up without having to be pigeon holed into one single playstyle which, quite frankly, totally blows and is not at all what I would consider fun.
As others have said I already have a job, I don’t need to come home and deal with a hectic cluster frock just to get entry level raid gear. It also tends to make people extremely grumpy which reduces community interaction in these groups to an oftentimes extremely unfriendly and off-putting ordeal.
Every man for himself is just another way of saying divide and conquer, only we are the ones conquering ourselves with this mindset of competition and exclusivity.
This is a business not a social media blog. Business leaders don’t chase fads they set them. That is what it means to be a leader.
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I"d like five man dungeons that maybe could scale up like M+ for higher ilvl drops, but kill the idea of a timer, or rng chest, and instead it would be complete with 100% full clear and no wipes. offering the best ilvl, with penalties for failing a full clear or having each wipe lowering ilvl of drops.
Make doing it right and not playing beat the clock but living through it the way to best drops.
Also a 100% clear and no wipes would allow running it without lockouts.
Slow down and have fun would be nice.
And with quality rewards the incentive to not die and full clear would be in game so that would allow completing dungeon quests that ya don’t have time on timed runs to do without getting kicked by someone or at best fussed at.
That is an incorrect assumption. Even when the pacing is slower, things can go wrong, and very often did despite the best planning.
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Not really, when pacing is slower, there is a smaller load which can be dealt with by even the average player. When moving fast, there are more mobs accumulated, and more stuff going on for everyone.
Is the tank handling the increased load well? Is he managing his threat well on all the extra mobs he picked up? If not, how are the dps handling it? How is the healer handling it?
There’s much more going on at a faster pace. Thinking that a slower pace is more difficult is just dumb.
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