Body type instead of gender, mean bearded lady?

[Baeddan-wyrmrest-accord]

Body type 1 was originally called “Male” and was designed to be Male.

It’s a bit silly to say “nope it’s no longer Male!” As if the changing the label changes what it was designed as.

It would have made more sense for males and females to get extra body types.

Male - Skinny
Male - Buff
Male - Athletic
Male - Large

Female - Skinny
Female - Buff
Female - Athletic
Female - Large

That makes way more sense.

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

@Kiofea-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Because you’re assuming a man cannot have doe-y eyes, or a slender nose, or pronounced dimples.

Never said anything of the sort.

Yet, you say a figure sporting the above is 100% female.

[Kiofea-dalaran]

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Yet, you say a figure sporting the above is 100% female.

With this caveat:

@Kiofea-dalaran

but with only those descriptors

Read the ENTIRE response instead of taking points out of context.

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

Then what descriptors would make that figure as a male? Is there a minimum muscle size? A maximum amount of fat or flab?

I cannot figure out why you can be so ironclad in identifying someone at-a-glance when those very variables you use to identify them are not gender-exclusive at all.

[Kiofea-dalaran]

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Then what descriptors would make that figure as a male?

I suppose we’re at that point where I have to copy and paste previous responses…

@Kiofea-dalaran

Height, weight, eyelashes, hairstyle and hair length, eyebrows, nose, cheeks… And that is just the silhouette and face… There are LOTS of factors that help people distinguish male from female and vice versa.

Is there a minimum muscle size?

No.

A maximum amount of fat or flab?

No.

I cannot figure out why you can be so ironclad in identifying someone at-a-glance when those very variables you use to identify them are not gender-exclusive at all.

@Kiofea-dalaran

There are LOTS of factors that help people distinguish male from female and vice versa.

And to be even more clear: taking in MANY factors into account all at once is how we as humans can distinguish not only the sex of another human but also the individual person.

Have you heard of the phenomenon with faces? Break faces apart into specific pieces like upper lip, left eye, and etcetera and people generally cannot tell to which person that piece of a face belongs to even if they know the person very well. We only register faces as collectives, not individual parts - the same principle applies when observing the sex of a human at a glance; take an individual piece or small set of information and one would be hard-pressed to determine the sex of the person he or she is observing but with the majority of the pieces he or she will be able to correctly identify the person’s sex.

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

That absolutely falls apart because I, myself, have been misgendered, and I’m a cis-het individual. I’ve done nothing to change my body, I’ve done no hormone treatments, and the only surgery I’ve had was Lasik to get rid of my glasses. This has not been a one-off thing, either, unless I make myself well-known to the individual I’m speaking to, there is a reasonable chance the person I am speaking to will guess wrong. I suppose I’m just that androgynous and never realized it, but that’s why I am flabbergasted at the notion of ‘oh I just know at-a-glance’ because that’s simply not true.

[Kiofea-dalaran]

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

That absolutely falls apart because I, myself, have been misgendered,

Sounds like more information would have been helpful. Also, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, and anyone can say anything…

and I’m a cis-het individual.

So?

I’ve done nothing to change my body,

So??

I’ve done no hormone treatments,

SO???

and the only surgery I’ve had was Lasik to get rid of my glasses.

SO?!?

This has not been a one-off thing, either,

There’s got to be a point, right?

unless I make myself well-known to the individual I’m speaking to,

Sigh…

there is a reasonable chance the person I am speaking to will guess wrong.

Ugh…

I suppose I’m just that androgynous and never realized it,

X to doubt.

but that’s why I am flabbergasted at the notion of ‘oh I just know at-a-glance’ because that’s simply not true.

You took all that time to just say nothing at all… Great. I’m sorry you are an outlier, even if I don’t believe a single word of this, but exceptions do not prove the rule.

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

You are in the exact same spot, except you are claiming absolutes. You are claiming ‘no one can misgender anyone because it’s obvious what separates men and women when you look at the whole picture’. I’m saying ‘people can be wrong about gender and sometimes expectations get exposed as false’. That is why I am pressing you about the sizes and shapes of bodies not being intrinsically linked to a particular gender because it doesn’t make sense.

[Kiofea-dalaran]

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

You are in the exact same spot, except you are claiming absolutes.

I’m not the one making up incidents and attributes trying desperately to prove a point. I am sharing real-world phenomenon and biological theory.

You are claiming ‘no one can misgender anyone

Back to things I never said…

because it’s obvious what separates men and women when you look at the whole picture’.

That I did say, and true.

I’m saying ‘people can be wrong about gender and sometimes expectations get exposed as false’.

So not even the same point. Again, never said those things either and ironically you are just stating what I said earlier back at me in a different way; people can be wrong about a person’s sex if they are missing key information to help make that distinction.

That is why I am pressing you about the sizes and shapes of bodies not being intrinsically linked to a particular gender because it doesn’t make sense.

And again, I never said that.

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

@Kiofea-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

You are claiming ‘no one can misgender anyone

Back to things I never said…

@Kiofea-dalaran

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

because it’s obvious what separates men and women when you look at the whole picture’.

That I did say, and true.

There is absolutely zero basis for this kind of thought. You are saying, with 100% probability and zero errors, that if you look at someone in a store, seated at a table, having a coffee, you could know with absolutely no margin of error, what that person’s gender is.

Do you have any concept of how ludicrous that sounds?

[Kiofea-dalaran]

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

There is absolutely zero basis for this kind of thought.

I don’t think I can explain the basis more clearly than I already have, or you are intentionally not comprehending it.

You are saying, with 100% probability and zero errors, that if you look at someone in a store, seated at a table, having a coffee, you could know with absolutely no margin of error, what that person’s gender is.

Never. Said. That.

Do you have any concept of how ludicrous that sounds?

Yes, hence why I didn’t say it.

[Stormfury-blackwater-raiders]

I wouldn’t bother arguing with him. You are getting worked up and those types wait for mistakes to trip you up.

[Kiofea-dalaran]

I wonder in what specific way you mean that… (I have a really good guess, but I don’t want to assume.)

[Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast]

Then what do you mean by it? Because you’re saying ‘the difference is obvious between men and women’, which infers that you can, with 100% accuracy, identify a man from a woman at all times.

Is that true, or not true?

[Quenya-shadow-council (Quenya)]

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Is that true, or not true?

He has basically argued himself into a corner and will not answer in any meaningful way.

[Kiofea-dalaran]

@Lingxiu-the-forgotten-coast

Then what do you mean by it?

Third time’s the charm!

@Kiofea-dalaran

Height, weight, eyelashes, hairstyle and hair length, eyebrows, nose, cheeks… And that is just the silhouette and face… There are LOTS of factors that help people distinguish male from female and vice versa.

Because you’re saying ‘the difference is obvious between men and women’,

Missing a key point in that quote, but continue.

which infers that you can,

It certainly is possible.

with 100% accuracy,

Again, possible.

identify a man from a woman

Yes.

at all times.

Ah, so this is where the disconnect is. Allow me to explain yet again:

@Kiofea-dalaran

@Kiofea-dalaran

There are LOTS of factors that help people distinguish male from female and vice versa.

And to be even more clear: taking in MANY factors into account all at once is how we as humans can distinguish not only the sex of another human but also the individual person.

Is that true, or not true?

No!

[Kiofea-dalaran]

Would you like to check me on that?

[Sasarai-blades-edge]

Once again. If you can’t separate a fantasy race from some political/real world biological ideology I can’t help you.

I’m not going to discuss the real reason People like you are so upset because this isn’t the time and especially not the place.

Things like this can exist in a world of mushroom people and magic

[Vaeana-area-52 (Vaeana)]

@Volzod-korialstrasz

Yeah, I’m pretty sure the devs didn’t fully anticipate the size of the can of worms they were opening up with this change.

That can is big enough for one worm. So it’s not nearly as big an issue as the snowflakes on the forum would have you believe.

[Luthria-greymane]

@Sasarai-blades-edge

It’s a fantasy video game. This is not abnormal.

You pick a character And customize it for various reasons

For the fun of it

This sums up so well how I’m looking at this (and now I’m genuinely eager for bearded lady characters, and I hope it comes true!).

It’s a fantasy land, we’re going out to fight dragons (or be dragons) and we get whimsically styled armor and weapons and crazy overpowered abilities, we get to be jazzy humanoid races (or, just be a plain human).

Gender-bending is a very common fantasy and it’s been hitting the mainstream conversation and consciousness big time. A lot of people (like myself) are going to have our curiosity piqued by gender-bending options in a fantasyland video game without it amounting to any sort of statement about the real world.

People online and in video games larp that they’re otherkin or elfkin or what have you. When people want to actually be treated as such in real life, or have body modification surgery to give themselves a split lizard tongue, or elf ears, my reaction is “WHOA! that’s a bit… extreme” but it doesn’t mean I think there’s any harm in video games where you can roleplay a lizard or an elf. Because healthy people make a solid distinction between fantasy and reality.

Having an online fantasy roleplaying outlet might even help a person explore the fantasies without taking the extreme step of body modification. I’m seeing more gender flexibility in the video game as overwhelmingly positive.

I mean really, think about the psychological impact that it has to have some desire be hit with a wall of “NO! you cannot be called by the pronoun you choose. You cannot mix male/female characteristics on the same character.” … in a fantasy video game, for crying out loud. No wonder this small minority has an outsized persecution complex. A fantasy video game is the perfect place for fantasy roleplay exploration.