She is not Elisande and was worfed by Jaina with ease.
Its all good, scrolling down reading every new comment, some text would get confusing.
Lo’themar was clearly in a coma during the Second W–Wait wasn’t he captured by Amani (while they were Horde) and tortured…Weird guy
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I mean, the kaldorei had pretty significant problems with both of these groups, and it took a massive cultural reform and a few killing sprees for them to reach an accord. The nightborne also had no great incentive to grind Tyrande’s goodwill when the other elven kingdom, whose prevailing culture is a dead ringer for their own, offered it freely and actively courted them for alliance.
Even then they chose the Alliance as their first choice because they still identified as Kaldorei on some level. But Tyrande shot that in the foot. And we saw that it was mostly Tyrande’s attitude because the second in command, Shandris, was much more courteous to them during Legion.
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Abandoned them is a strong word. Anasterian hesitated with sending troops to the Alliance during the second war, until he finally relented and sent a token force at the behest of Lothar. Later when Alleria approached him and showed that the orcs were on the doorsteps of Quel’thalas, Anasterian were furious and sent the elves out in full force to aid in the war. The Elves then participated until the end of the war, where it came to the decision of what to do with the orcs. The high elves disagreed with the eventuel decision to spare the orcs, and like the Gilneans, they pulled out of the Alliance, Anasterian citing that the Alliance were poorly managed and the orcs would never have come that far if they were better at their job.
The High Elves did send help during the third war, when news of the plague came around.
Because the member of the Alliance intentionally sent Kael’thas and his people into missions to get them killed.
Hardly. Or do you expect that an Night Elves invasion force just happened to land in Quel’thaals just like that? Besides, the Night elves near the sanctum are hostile, and the Night Elves have shown to be willing to kill any Blood Elf discovering their presence, as seen in a quest in Ghostlands. So no, the dwarves and night elves struck first.
There is also still the matter of possible sabotage form the night elves. I am still not convinced they were fully innocent. Everyone who have tried to convince me of that, have totally misread those quests, and they misread the situations, and that is factual. There is no concrete evidence that the Night Elves sabotaged a structure, which was INTEGRAL to helping the Blood Elves sate their magical addiction and thus their survival, but the quests, the position of the night elves, and the dialogue with the dwarf, certainly makes it very likely that sabotage was involved. People, for some reason, just only look at the early part of the quests when you are first sent to the sanctum, and ignores the quests when you actually discovered the night elves.
Surprise.
Night Elves were representatives of the Alliance here.
Despite what people may think, our Alliance or Horde characters, at that point in time, were not representatives of either the Alliance or the Horde, our characters represented their individual class order. Night Elves represented the Alliance and Blood Elves represented the Horde.
That is prejudice. The Darkspear trolls were wholly innocent in this altercation. THey were bullied out of stranglethorn by other troll tribes, and then they moved away to the Darkspear isles where Kul’tiran soldiers would suddenly find them and start attacking them - based on prejudice as you so willingly displays too: “But other trolls attacked us, so therefor all trolls are aggressive and will attack us!”
Do you see the point that Lor’themar made?
Don’t know, humans have had quite the fondness of attacking other races they have perceived as being hostile, without aforementioned races actually being hostile. It is quite the repeated memo of humans in Warcraft.
Other than disrupting the transportation of Horde goods through Vol’dun. I say many things do not make sense in Warcraft. Such as Kael’thas turning to the Legion, or the Night Elves being in Quel’thalas - their last knowledge of the Blood ELves, is that the Blood Elves helped them stop Illidan, and saved Tyrande. But regardless of what I think makes sense or do not, it happened. Alliance DID attack the vulpera, and the Alliance DID attack the Blood Elves for no reason.
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Still, to members in the Alliance that was considered abandoning them, its why some Key members hated them. Gilneas was in the same point though I haven’t read fully just yet wolfheart I think it was that showed them joining the Alliance from what i’ve seen.
I agree it would have caused their death but it was still a betrayal none the less because it wasn’t “Side with the Naga or Die.” But from my PoV they were given no choice, just writting it from the Alliances pov.
I’ve already replayed to the other points you made with other people so scroll up if you want. Just dont want to keep retyping
I do not agree that it was betrayal. Betrayal constitutes that you act against the interests of a person, a people or a country in which you consider and are considered an ally. Kael’thas’ choice was not betrayal, it was pragmatic use of a provided tool which he could use to further the interest of the group he was a part of. If anyone betrayed anyone, it was Garithos, who with his acts betrayed Kael’thas and the Blood Elves, and the Alliance.
I don’t see it.
It is quite strange talk though, ‘abandoning’ as if the High Elves ended up just leaving them DURING the war, the same way that Gul’dan and his clan just went off to do their own thing when the Horde were preparing to attack Lordaeron.
The High Elves, when they participated fully, were committed till the very end of the war, and helped push the old Horde all the way back to Draenor (Now Outland). When the dust was settled, they pulled out of the Alliance. That is not abandonement.
Funny thing is also, the High Elf later Blood Elf royalty who was the most in favor of the Alliance, to the point that his own people did not really trust he would do the best for them, were the one who ended up being betrayed by the Alliance. Poor Kael’thas, putting so much faith in the Alliance, only to get smacked in the face by them.
Turns out Kael’thas’ father may have been right.
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Aside from a few elements the Gilneans didn’t face any hostility from the Alliance when they rejoined. Unless more was revealed in the Wolfheart novel it went smoothly overall amd didn’t get nearly the hostility that the Blood Elves got when they considered rejoining.
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If by, ‘a few elements,’ you meant Varian’s raging anger, then yeah. The Dwarves, Gnomes, and even Draenei were open to Gilneas’ rejoining, and the Kaldorei’s support was a given. We’ve no idea what Dalaran’s opinion was given their absence, but I don’t believe Gilneas and Dalaran were exactly friendly in the past.
I want to say that modern Quel’Thalas has not considered rejoining the modern Alliance, but that’s not true. Passing over Kael’thas’ attempt to rejoin the Alliance as trying to rejoin the Alliance of Lordaeron (rather than the modern Grand Alliance), the fact of the matter is that while the Blood Elves were hosting a dwarven ambassador in their lands, they already were giving the Horde’s ambassadors the 5-Star treatment with tours around the city, bragging about how far they’d come. I don’t think at that time Quel’Thalas had any serious intention of rejoining the Alliance.
Where it did have a serious intent was when Lor’themar was in talks with Varian. Of course, that got sabotaged. Those attempts didn’t receive hostility from the Alliance though. In fact, we really don’t know how those talks went at all. Lor’themar was certainly in a position of power in those talks though. I mean, he’d have been handing the Alliance the win in the war.
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Don’t give that crap.
The dwarves’ letter specifically mentioned that his sole purpose for being in Quel’thalas was to see the effects of a malfunctioning arcane sanctum.
It is also why he is noted to ask more questions about the sanctums themselves, rather than actually doing diplomatic work.
It would seem the Blood Elves indulged the dwarf and were too serious about trying to rejoin the Alliance, so much so that it put them in danger.
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Its… not crap? The Blood Elves were literally hosting a Dwarven Ambassador, and without much interest in engaging in much diplomacy. His role is immaterial to that point.
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Quite the contrary.
The Dwarf was not interested in engaging in diplomacy, he was interested in seeing and talking about the arcane sanctums, it is all there in the quests and in the dialogue he have with the nearby Blood Elf, probably the one guiding him around, who is puzzled by the dwarf’s curiousity about the sanctums.
I quite like how we try to turn the tables around and paint the Blood Elves as untrustworthy villains when they quite clearly were the ones betrayed in this instance.
I also forgot that the document you find on the night elves, also contain detailed maps of different strategic buildings in Eversong Woods. Whatever use could a “diplomat” have for strategic buildings!
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Yes but according to lore the elves allowed him there under the guise he was an ambassador, crap if you want but its the facts
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In the words of Captain Aeldon Sunbrand
“Of course! That envoy from Ironforge! We were fools to trust anyone belonging to the Alliance!”
Yes, the Blood Elves, yet again, put too much faith in the Alliance and was betrayed… much like Kael’thas put too much faith in Garithos… and was betrayed.
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Which makes us correct in saying he was there pretending to be an ambassador.
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Probably helped that Theron was only a soldier/minor war hero during WC2 and the policy-makers who pulled Quel’Thalas out of the Alliance are all long dead. Except Rommath, maybe; the Sylvanas novel made him one of Anasterian’s advisors.
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Remember the days when this chat was about Blood Elf Shadowpriests? I miss vanilla chat.
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I have no idea what you are trying to tell me?
This is what I argued against
You seem confused right now.
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What are we even arguing about, feels like we are just both yelling at a wall making the same points XD
You just bounced into a discussion not involving you at all, and I assumed you had atleast followed it.
Basically.
The Dwarf came and lied about being there for diplomatic purposes, when he was in reality sent to Quel’thalas to observe the effects of a malfunctioning arcane sanctum.
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