Honor is way too vague and ill-defined within WoW to say who does and does not have it. And one half of the time it seems to mean something different than the other half the time.
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Show me your honor.
Sounds like a bad pick-up line
Bet it would make the orcs go âzug zugâ though.
Me not that kind of orc!
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Ogrimâs horde was probably the best Horde we have seen, He knew he was leading a pack of blood crazy orcs but they were his people and if he didnât lead them to war they would destroy themselves.
While they did commit some atrocious things during the war they also did some good. They removed the shadow council, Saved the forest trolls and chased Guldan down when he went after the tomb of Sargaeras. He even made a deal to spare Alterac after they negotiated letting his army through.
Ogrim was aware that he was still doing terrible thing but never made excuses for them he owned them. He intended to make the Horde better.
Unlike Thralls horde who like to pretend they are better but at the same time attacked the Alliance on sight when landing on Kalimdor and also drank demonblood again. They honor Ogrimâs horde and heroâs but at the same time ignore all the terrible things it did at the same time.
While true, remember Thrall grew up as basically a green human, and a gladiatorial prisoner at that. Most of what he knew came from the stories he was told (Hellscream as a storyteller is gonna give you some interesting tales.)
Thrall was trying to combine what he knew and what he was learning as he went, unless they retconned it, part of why the horde built Org where they did, was Thrall felt living in a harsh place would serve as a form of penitence.
(It was from Garroshâs old story, where he met the orcs in Org and saw them struggling and was told that by a kid⌠it may have been ret-conned iâm still trying to catch up on all the changes)
Yes, but that where he stopped trying to make the Horde better, He plopped them in a desert but never really tried to improve the Horde from there. It was also redundant when you have to remember that he kept forces in Ashenvale plucking resources from there.
Not much point to putting your people in a harsh condition if you still keep sneaking into your neighbors yard to steal from them.
Oh agreed, the Ashenvale thing never made much sense from that standpoint,
I -think- I remember reading once it had to do with Thrall couldnât keep the warsong in check, like they were going to go to ashenvale anyways so he tried to temper them as best as he could⌠Even if im remembering right, it was still a big fail on his end.
I mean it would never happen but if the Horde up and left Eastern kingdoms and Kalimdor and instead settled in Northrend it would be a good fit for them to show they truly want just a land they can call their own.
Bloodelves could settle and build upon the nexus and try fix the arcane issues there.
Tauren could go grizzly hills with the help of the Tanuka, could regrow the world tree there and succeed where the elves failed(now yagsaron is dead)
Orcs could settle in Howling Fjord, they could spend all day fighting the Vyrkul which I think they would enjoy.
Darkspear could settle Zul drak, try to restore the Loa that were killed there.
The Forsaken could settle in icecrown and be trying to save to all the freed undead now the lich king isnât controlling them.
This give each of the Horde races a place that would suit them with plenty of resources for them to draw on. It also give them a purpose and something to work towards.
That is only true for older players. New players always go to BfA without exception.
Honor itself is a dubious concept, and not really something studied or written about very much. But we shouldnât assume that Blizzard is using a completely made up version of the word either. Words have meanings. Today, itâs more or less synonymous with integrity, which the Horde lacks.
But even if you look at what (surprisingly) little information and understanding of the word there is in a historical setting, you see the Horde is lacking.
With a (mostly) egalitarian society, with no honor groups, with no concrete code of honor, with no limits in targets or reasons for attack, the Horde lacks any understandable sense of honor that would fit throughout history.
They claim honor in the same sense that a skilled but cowardly combatant might claim honor, using their skill and mastery of an art to show dedication and strength, but lacking the strict and high standards that âmakeâ the concept.
They marched on children. They marched on people who couldnât defend themselves. They repeatedly burn and destroy cities of non-combatants and torture civilians in ghastly and terrible ways.
They overlook monstrous experimentâs, willingly ally themselves with demons and greedy goblins who will sell them out for the right price.
As much as I dislike Saurfang as a character, he is one of the few that has shown honor, shown remorse, shown and stepped up and lived by what he believed in after he fell from his own graces.
The Horde, at large, doesnât have limits. Doesnât have rules of combat. Doesnât have anything even remotely similar to honor groups or codified lessons in conduct.
At best, itâs a crude interpretation of Honor, the idea that reputation is what matters and only reputation is what matters, so like any schoolyard bully they beat up people they think slighted them because being slighted shows âweaknessââŚ
But without the personal cost of honor, without the personal code within an honor group, thatâs just what I said. People claiming they are defending their honor or being honorableâŚbut lacking any real sense of it. Claiming to have it without any real understanding of it.
They lack self control. They lack integrity. They lack comradery. They lack respect of their peers and as a direct result they lack the components to even have self respect.
They arenât even the worst aspects of an Honor state. They donât even get that much of it right.
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Historical Latin meaning of Honor: (1) esteem or repute; (2) concrete marks of that esteem, such as rewards or ceremonies; and (3) public offices, as in the expression cursus honorum , the course or career of a Roman magistrate from lesser functions toward the consulate.
We can see how the modern use of the word came to be, high respect or great esteem, or an adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct, it can also be used as a synonym for privilege or pride. It even crosses over into a verbiage meaning to regard with great respect or to fulfill an obligation.
I think too often we think of Honor we think of Bushido or Chivalry, forgetting that these were codes of conduct for an archaic age. Too often we think of honor and think of things like Seppuku or âDo not ambush unarmed knights between Lent and Easterâ and we think âWell, this is stupid, there should be no rules to war.â
I canât count how many cringy edge lords will quote Mass Effect in response to any implication of a code of honor being respectable or important, âStand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The Silence is your answer.â
I am not trying to make light of the moral complexity of war, but I think youâll be hard pressed to find any respectable and experienced War Vet or member of the military who would claim that the Geneva Convention isnât important. They may say it is imperfect, they may say some aspects of it is unenforceable, they may say the thing needs to be revised, but I do not think you can easily find someone who things a code of conduct isnât needed in war time, or that War Criminals shouldnât be held accountable. That is essentially our Modern Day Bushido and Chivalry.
When it comes to orcs, however, there doesnât seem to be any concrete code of conduct for War. Really what we do see are codes of conduct for duels, which are typically fought over positions of status in the community. This tells me that orcish honor has more to do with the historical meaning of the word, rather than the Bushido/Chivalry use. Which is near synonymous with the word Duty. As an esteemed member of the community, be it a Chieftain, Overlord, Warlord or Warcheif, you are beholden to certain obligations. I assume accepting challenges of MokâGora is one of them. Like what Ferlion said, it is basically integrity, but I think it is more specifically the integrity of an orcâs held position more than anything else.
So why does Saurfang get all bent out of shape for attacking Malfurion from behind? That certainly has the vibe of Bushido, where respect is assumed from all warriors, even the enemy. Or Chivalry, and there being rules about attacking knights between Lent and Easter. Perhaps there are codes of honor attributed to the High Overlord rank, but we have no way of knowing this.
The root of the issue is orcish honor is undefined, what you see above is really just me doing my best to make sense of it. Blizzard really has no intention of ever defining it either, the last thing they seem to want is to hold themselves accountable to lore the predetermine. Without defining it, then orcish honor can be whatever they want it to be. Personally, I donât only see that as lazy, I see that as blatant disrespect to the franchise and to the fanbase.
Part of be believes that Blizzard is tying up every lose end they can, so they can kick off a Warcraft 4 or WoW 2 with no restrictions. Perhaps set in an AU Azeroth when Lightforged Yrel and Garrosh cross the âLight Portalâ
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Shadowlands is almost certain to be setting up a soft reboot of WoW.
If Blizzard follows their lore, we will come out of Shadowlands after hundreds of years.
Itâs my belief thatâs why Shadowlands art style is just slightly different than Blizzardâs normal faire. Itâs why I think they are going left field. Shadowlands is the âWe are making a divide between old and newâ expansion.
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I get this vibe too. And I really hope itâs the case. I hope we emerge from shadowlands into a revived, living, breathing world rather than a series of amusement park rides.
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I hadnât thought of it in that way. Wow, I really like your take on this. And câmon the way you describe Orgrimâs situation vs Thralls, be honest Orgrim makes for a much more compelling story.
The greatest thing Blizz could do is have us lose all contact with Azeroth during the story part of Shadowlands, so when we come back, the alliance and horde we find is as different as when we came back to Draenor and found that the Dranae and Orcs had changed in the maghar allied race intro. Hundred of years later, what would the Horde and Alliance even look like? Maybe you wouldnât even fit in to the new Ideology and get to choose to switch sides.
Itâs ironic that you bring up rome as a becnhmark for honor when youâre such a strong proponent of colonialism being wrong.
Um⌠I canât change the origin of the word⌠I am citing the historical meaning of the word honor, not expressing my approval of the Roman Empire⌠Did you even read what I said?
This is a pretty lame attempt at a âgotchaâ moment⌠even for you.
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Simple understanding of honor (Not saying itâs true but maybe it should be.)
"At the End of the Day, when you look yourself in the mirror
And the End of the battle, when you face your lord
At the end of your life, when you face your maker
Can you Stand proud and confidently claim that you fought with courage, With integrity, and have earned the right to stand among your equals."
âYour death will bring me Honor!â
Random orc raider on stormsong valley.
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