Blizzard, Do Something About M+ Leavers

There isn’t much that they can do that would be applied fairly to everyone.
Instead what I suggested was just recourse for the keyholder.
Its only a problem at all because people act selfishly and the keyholder is the only one who gets burned.

I suggested an entire revamp of the system to include a currency to offer better options for those who put their key up often, but in the end the best fix would have to come from RaiderIO’s scoring system.

It basically encourages people to not care about upgrading keys, which makes no sense given the way the keystone system works in the actual game, and they seem to have no interest in fixing it, so pugging suffers.

Blizzard basically doesn’t care, because their perspective is pugging is your own gamble, and you have people here who barely do keys acting like its not an issue so its never going to get solved it seems.

The best thing would be to add more to the api data on blizzards side. Like adding in a way to track if someone leaves the key prematurely. Whatever the reason that way when raider io projects their data you can see the number of completions as well as the number of dungeons they abandon. This would allow player to be more informed on the reliability of the player they invite staying or dropping out.

Nah I’ve never seen it happen, but it would be a potential solution to the problem.

Yes and should prevent the ignored player from seeing your groups, or at least queueing for them. Maybe a pop up message that says the leader has them on ignore!

Playing my RDruid earlier for a quick key… 19 JY… get all the way to the end and our tank, the blood DK, gets the D SO HARD on the last boss during wreck… quits with 8 mins left.

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Lol, Zeei-tichondrius, the guy who’s name is said in the title of that video. I’ve had two runs ruined by him because the tank (me usually) doesn’t pull exactly according to his combustion preferences. He then calls the tank garbage and leaves.

Good thing I have an abnormally good memory. People like that stick in my mind for a LONG TIME when they do me wrong.

Back on top I just had a clean FH 18 run blow up, healing this time on my resto druid. Continuing from my commentary in the “u know route ?” thread I purposefully put a cutoff limit on score, so I didn’t get a high score princess that demands perfection and leaves a smooth run for no good reason. I slipped up and let a BM hunter in with a 20 FH timed. 60% trash in we’re coming close to the second boss with no wipes yet. Would have been a guaranteed timer or maybe even +2. A couple pulls happen where the hunter’s pet dies and he rages at the tank for threat. Said hunter then ragequits right after.

These are the kind of experiences that yet again prove that leaver punishment systems need context. You purposefully leave a run that by all metrics is going 99% fine ? You get punished and labelled for it by the system.

I’ll be even more careful with the high limits of letting people in now. I’ll get lots of hate for it, but my patience has been exhausted. People who join a run with a high score have no investment in the run to tolerate any mistakes. Said people will rage at the smallest things and leave 99% of the time. I’m done with them. So many good runs with guaranteed timers recently absolutely destroyed by these people over the most stupid trivial things. The end result is the same as if people played terribly, my key gets depleted and the run ends.

Anyways whatever going to rehost the key as a 17, someone applies with a FH 17 timed ? decline, because otherwise I assume they tolerate zero mistakes (a timed 17 doesn’t require perfection) and will mysteriously ragequit again. This is the absurdity that has developed in the season 4 community.

Finally for that video that guy took the words right out of my mouth, especially with the phrase “suddenly all of these DPS think they decide how the run will go and the route”, nope. If you want that privilege you go tank.

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Because it is…

Someone’s experience has no effect on whether or not it’s an issue. It either is, or it isn’t, regardless of a poster having 2k io or 2 io. The fact is, it’s not an issue.

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Perhaps its better to think of ways for the Key Holder to be protected rather than the random players invited to be punished.

My outlook on keys is this: The key is just a means to an end. I don’t care that its your key, my key, his key, or her key, the only purpose of the key is to do the dungeon and to me it is irrelevant who actually has the key. I have left less keys than fingers on my hand, but usually due to extended afks/DCs, and I will be the schmuck to stay in those hour and a half keys because I want to complete the dungeon.

That said, I understand when people get upset about “their” key. Its the keystone they were given and it feels bad to deplete “your” key. I hate the whole mentality of “mine” or “your” key because I see it all the time, people are VERY willing to join someone elses key and if it goes bad don’t care cause its not theirs, while on the other hand if it is theirs they get upset.

A possible solution I think Keyholders could have is the ability to reset the key upon someone leaving. I don’t know the logistics between making this possible, but essentially if it can happen the Mythic+ system understands there are now 4 people instead of 5 and allows the group leader a “reset” of the key. Keeps the same level, but all progress is lost and you have to start over.


Obvious Positives:

-Allows the keyholder a chance to NOT deplete their key
-Disconnects are still hurtful, but can give the group another chance if the disconnect stops
-Being upset leavers reduced. Still painful, but at least you get another shot.
-Leavers cannot flat out ruin your key because they think its a waste of time 5 minutes in, since the key can be reset.
-Allows practice of pulls without going in blind and potentially ruining keys at unfamiliar levels.

Obvious Negatives

-Someone leaves purposefully so the key can be reset (more so an issue if a friend group wants to restart their key)
-Fishing for some ideal pulls near the start of keys (gigantic pulls you pray go correct, if not reset because its only 2 minutes)
-Someone wanting to complete for loot can be overpowered by someone leaving for a reset.
-Essentially testing applicants in the first few pulls to see if they are good, and then having someone leave to reset the key and kick them.


Few specific rules to this to avoid some abuse:

-Key holder cannot leave to get a reset, has to be another group member
-Cannot reset the key if it already depletes

There could be things like basing a reset by the key holder through a “vote” system, but I don’t think opening that can of worms and putting forth my spaghetti code work around would be beneficial.

So what do people think? Would a reset option for the key holder be a potential option to curb the impact of leavers? Still would be leavers of course, but maybe those who value their keystone have some defense, since many are opposed to “punishment” or “merit” systems.

Does this hunter know it’s skittish week? Good lord.

Oh no, it absolutely does, and this is absolutely an issue.
Experience in this matter is the ONLY qualification for discussing it in my eyes, because after you go through 5 keys in a row and fail to finish 5 straight, you start to see things differently.

Its not about score or anything else.
Its about pugging, and you can tell a lot of people in this discussion have next to no experience with serious PVE pugging.

Frankly, this is the biggest issue the game has right now, and you trying to block it out is just sad.

The social atmosphere of the game has gotten worse and worse over the years, and its devolved to such a degree that people care more about their made up score on a third party website that is made by actual casuals who also don’t participate in the content they are altering than the plethora of rewards Blizzard has already designed.

Think about that. A website that Blizzard doesn’t even actively work with is changing the modality of the gameplay in their game.

And the people who run that website have zero interest in improving it.

This is the biggest problem the game has ever faced because its not a problem with the game itself.

Its a problem with the community.

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Blizzard are the ones who decided that 15 would be the cut off from reward to glory. I may feel differently past 15 if blizzard did implement some in game reward after the keystone master achievement, but vendor trash isn’t an incentive to stay with people I’ll see no ROI on.

It takes quite a bit to get me to leave, but if I do, it’s because I no longer felt like I was having fun and it wasn’t worth my time to stay.

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You’re wrong. There is nothing in this discussion that is incomprehensible to people of different backgrounds. If two people make the exact same argument, one isn’t more right than the other because he pugs more, and one isn’t less right than the other because he pugs less. The argument, as in almost all cases, stands and falls on its own merit, irrespective of the person making it. This is a fact. You are free to disagree, but it is one of the principles of logical discourse.

Anytime a player has an issue with the game, it is “the biggest issue the game has”. Spoiler alert: it usually isn’t.

It’s almost like this exact same scenario played out ten years ago, during Wrath, with Gear Score. People complained that players were using gear score to gate keep content and that it was a crisis that would end the game. Instead, it became so normalized that Blizzard added ilvl into the base ui and the armory.

I use this example to demonstrate that, while the social atmosphere of the game may have gotten worse and worse, it is unrelated to raider io, because the game faced a nearly identical social issue during a time that is almost universally regarded as a social high point.

Don’t blame the website. You’ve already identified this as a social issue. People are choosing to use the website. It’s not manifesting some change in the gameplay on its own. It’s not a problem with the game or with IO. And in a moment, I’ll actually demonstrate that it isn’t a problem with the community either.

From the beginning of the game to the current iteration, players have needed to find other players in order to complete group content. Whether they were inspecting people on a mailbox, using the Gearscore addon, using ilvl, achievements, or the raider io rating, players have always tried to find some easy metric to gauge whether or not a player they don’t know might have the knowledge and experience that makes them similar enough to be an asset to the group.

That’s the issue here. People want to play with other players who are like themselves. People that are highly skilled and highly competitive don’t want to play with people who aren’t as skilled and who don’t care about where they rank. People that aren’t competitive don’t want someone who is going to be pushy and rude ruining the low key atmosphere they prefer when they’re playing.

Guilds and other social networks are the easiest way to avoid the dissonance of groups of people with different goals and different ideas of fun being forced to share the same game space.

Raider IO is a tool that is available for players to try to measure whether a player’s experience make them a good fit for a M+ group. It is the latest method players use to help them ensure they can get a group of players who play the game in a similar way.

It is, however, only a tool, and if players don’t use that tool correctly, then the final results won’t be as good. If you’re inviting 3k players to your +12 that you want to finish no matter what, you’re probably doing it wrong. If you’re inviting no rating players to your +15 expecting to time it, you’re probably doing it wrong.

The problem with the community isn’t the one you think it is. It’s the people who seem to believe that other players are obligated to play with them that are the only actual issue. If everyone approaches a group with the understanding that everyone is there voluntarily for only as long as they want to stay, then the people having problems may focus more on building a group of like minded people, and maintaining an atmosphere that encourages people to stay in the group, rather than try to force people to stay with punishments or other consequences. Stop treating other players like your servants and the game changes.

You’ve stated it’s a problem with the community, and by saying that, you’re basically confirming my point that it’s a problem for the community to solve, not for Blizzard to legislate.

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Oh no, it absolutely does, and this is absolutely an issue.

I think he was speaking objectively, i.e. something is either an issue or not, credentials don’t change facts.

RIO displays the same information as the WoW character profile page such as highest M+ dungeon timed, gear and HoA level, talent choices, etc. It just doesn’t have an overall score like RIO. Delete the addon and players would just inspect each toon’s armory instead; people care about some objective metric to decide who to invite to a dungeon, and although RIO is far from perfect, it’s the best thing that exists for revealing as much information as the technology allows.

One of the problems I see (with regard to pugs) is the incongruence of goals amongst the party members. RIO gives you a number, but says nothing of the attitude or goal of the person themself. Some people want loot, some people want to time, some people are just bored or testing a different talent. Whether or not someone will stay for completion, or expects a certain route to be used, can simply be discussed before the run begins. In my experience, chatting with party members and striking up a conversation before the dungeon often tells me whether or not they’re likely to be toxic based on their reponses.

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To my knowledge, Blizzard hasn’t come out and said so, but I suspect this is their position. What they have said is that people deserve higher rewards when they take responsibility for assembling and maintaining a group (or allowing themselves to be vetted by players before joining a group). In that system, I do think it’s also our responsibility to also either accept some level of toxic behavior, or take our own steps to avoid toxic people.

The better question to ask is, do they CARE that it is skittish week ? And the answer for most pug DPS is no, including this superstar who previously timed a +20 FH.

Anyways I rehosted the (now) +17 FH, back to bear spec this time because I was out of patience. I declined anyone who had 17 or above FH timed. I said a few words to have a shred of patience. We did not +2 it because the DPS was a bit lower (and bear DPS on tyrannical is particularly terrible) but we still finished with several minutes to spare. This same type of run flow would have been the 18 timed run instead, but we can’t have that because high score people need to blow up at the smallest stupid trivial things.

Thanks to blizzard these “echo farmers” are now flooding the ques. If they apply to mine and I don’t take them, then anyone currently in my group automatically starts raging saying things like:

  • “why don’t you take 3k people ?”
  • “why you hate high score people ?”
  • “u crazy bro they won’t leave”

And other statements born out of ignorance from people who have not hosted probably over a thousand keys across several characters since early legion. Again they don’t care, because if the run blows up within 5 minutes it’s my key lost, not theirs. They will just move on to the next group and yell at that group leader to fill it up ASAP.

As many others have said in this thread “the only control you have as the group leader is who you invite”, so I’m using that control as best as I can. Before it was for people who would likely fail mechanics. Now unfortunately it is to decline people who demand perfection and will blow up an otherwise smooth run.

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I’ve taken to joining 13 pugs for my first couple keys of the week to get used to affixes. I don’t sweat it if I get declined. The only reason I apply for that level is that it’s usually pretty neutral on affixes (bursting scales too hard when the key level is too low, but tyrannical is tough at higher levels).

But, I have no expectations at all. I’ll be tanking it my usual way and I was testing a strategy for a talent and had to wait until the last trash pull for the group to mess up burst. (BoSW healer/bubble/immunity large pull strat). A lot of the time, groups are just thankful to have a tank, but I wouldn’t be surprised to get declined.

I’ll add that I, too, am very weary when a overqualified person joins. I don’t join low pugs with the intentions of messing with people, but it seems some do.

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This irks me to no end. As I go higher in keys I notice this. Like people expecting me to pull around their cooldowns as if I’m literally an NPC to be commanded around.

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NPC dungeon/raid tanks coming to a future WoW near you. I would not be surprised.

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I’d pull around them if they’d just say when they’re using them. I’m tackling this issue in my group now. I pull something and because they didn’t font 15s earlier they don’t do it at all and the next smaller pull is “wtf, man”.

If you have someone on ignore, can they see your pug groups? If they get into your group, can they see what you say in party/instance chat?

Ignore has always been 1 way. If I ignore you, you can always see what I type unless you ignore me.