The key holder is the one responsible (in most cases) for creating the group. I don’t see a point in giving lenience to a key holder just because a group failed. They’re the one who chose to pug a key… it’s an inherent risk that people might not be able to complete that key.
The incentive is there to leave, and the incentive is greater if there’s no risk for the person to do so. Allowing the key to remain the same increases the likelihood of the key holder to leave the group. That means 4 other people would be wasting their time. It’s counter-productive to the issue at hand.
Then it truly would be what people pretend it is now. As soon as a pill goes wrong someone leaves to pretext the 2 chest lol. Literally the opposite of what they wanted.
I feel like this should be the default behavior. If a player has been so odious that I’ve decided to ignore them, it’s that player I’m interested in ignoring, not a particular character of theirs. Maybe RP servers would be an exception? That said, I don’t think this is a realistic solution to the leaver “problem.” In an ever changing pool of hundreds of thousands of M+ players, you could spend decades ignoring the bad ones and still never make a dent.
To the OP: I realize this is anecdotal evidence, but in hundreds of keys I’ve run, I can’t remember a single instance of someone leaving a key that was going smoothly and on track to time. If the forums are to be believed, it’s an epidemic, and usually it’s a high IO player doing the leaving. This makes me think that maybe these players just know something you don’t. Next time it happens, try asking (politely) why they left. Maybe you’ll learn something.
This is my biggest hurdle to actually suggest a “punishment” system. I’ve seen people get beat down by another player in a key, heck I’ve been beat down once before because someone thought they understood an interaction and I didn’t (and then went on to show them how wrong they were, and still getting messaged), he left I didn’t but your point remains true.
People get yelled at for not knowing some random guys specific “route”, doing a stupid route, not being able to heal 10 stacks of Bursting, not slowing on DPS when the guy pointing fingers was top on the non elites by far, doing too little DPS, not doing priority DPS, not interruping, stealing “their” interrupt (no set rotation called), doing a mechanic wrong (regardless of key level), not doing mechanics like Cannons in Tol, not doing cannons in Tol when “they” cannot do it themselves, standing on someone with quaking when “they” ran over you.
These are just a few and there are far, far more. The abuse some people will take, and then getting in a fight with the toxic person to shutup or leave but they keep berating. I don’t like leavers, but at least leave without trying to upset someone first/not give constructive criticism.
True, it doesnt actually fix the problem of leavers, but I doubt it is something that could be fixed. Any system put in place would just shift power to someone else to potentially be abused and new complaints arise.
I too can’t remember a single key going well someone leaving, but there have been MANY nail-biting keys that can be timed despite mistakes if the rest of the key goes a certain way. I guess I am just the type of person to do keys who will look for any conceivable way to time it and then get upset when someone doesnt think its possible (and I’ve done many “keys gone wrong” that were timed with seconds to spare, .2 seconds in one case)
The only true solution with few drawbacks (and made a thread looooong ago about it) is to go full Diablo 3 with the key system and just allow people to do choose the difficulty level they want to do in a key. This wouldn’t have the random aspect nor the farming keys aspect as D3 though.
I frankly don’ t care if people want to do a specific dungeon over and over for specific gear, or maybe even do a Keys training session with their group where they try to solidify every single pull before doing a certain level.
Only stipulation is that SOMEONE has to have done X level key to do ones higher. I don’t want to remove Key Sales personally (I do sometimes benefit from sales), but if Blizzard and the Community wanted to remove or hinder key sales it is possible to require EVERY person to have done at least 2 Levels lower than the difficulty you want to try. Make the sale groups need a person with certain progress or need to force progress them to get to the desired level. Again, I don’t want to discourage sales, just a suggestion in case people are worried about spam key sales to dissuade them slightly.
This doesn’t solve the issue of “leavers” but it does at least solve the issue of your key getting ruined, because now the whole concept of a “key” is no longer there to be ruined.
If you place a character on ignore it ignores all characters on that license (not battle.net account as far as I know) for the character you ignored them on.
But that is only for the character you were playing when you placed them on ignore. If you want them ignored on all your characters you’d need to ignore one of their characters on each of yours. I hope that makes sense.
As long as it also flags/marks/debuffs anyone who puts together a group that fails to achieve a finished dungeon in time (whether by missing the timer or just abandoning the key). If you want to designate people who leave groups it also needs to designate those who fail to put together appropriate groups that way everyone knows to avoid people who can’t be bothered to put together a successful group.
I have to agree here. I have ran with 3-4k people before, but it was not my key, it was their friends or whatever, so i fully expected some kind of carry involved but when you have a couple high io players, i know it’s still fine and easy. However, for your own key, i would highly recommend grabbing people who either need the key or fits in the 15 key io. People that are really high have already put in the work, and if things don’t go as quick or smooth as they want, sadly they will just leave.
You can backfill but the backfill can not receive any reward. At least then you could get a friend or guide to help with completion when you get a leaver.
People would ask their friends in group to leave before the timer is up to save the Key’s level to try again. I personally think that would be fine. But it would remove a disincentive to failing a key.
The best system would be to play with your friends. That’s what was intended when it was made. It’s not hard to get a few friends together for a key or to make some friends if you have none like I did at the start of bfa. I now have enough of a net work I could do keys up to 20s on either faction with all people on my friends list.
If you reset the instance within 10 minutes of starting the key, you don’t lose a key level. This negates the individuals that leave immediately on key start.
Btag ignores, but also make it so players on the ignore list cannot queue for your key. I’ll occasionally ignore people and they can just keep queuing up.
Does this ever actually happen? I don’t recall this happening to me once in all of bfa.
It would also mean key holders would run the first 9 mins over and over kicking people until it went perfectly. Creates a bigger problem than it solves Imo.
My only ask at this point would be to see a players complete dungeon history. They used to do this for arena and it was an amazing tool for learning and building groups.
not sure how this makes any sense to you. the person is already punished by having their key -1. are you suggesting more then that? o.O
While I don’t think a good punishment system can be created, I do think we still need better tools to make good groups. You can only do so much to vet the people that join your groups. To meet people to run groups with you still have to pug at some point.
I’m not sure that rewarding or punishing people is really the best path forward for solving M+ community issues (people leaving in pugs is a community issue).
I think what blizzard needs to do, is start to focus on building tools to help develop and grow better and more diverse (with regard to skill level) M+ communities. Whats right for 0-7 isn’t whats right for 15+ communities right?
As a first pass I think they need to bring some of these external player rating tools in-house instead of letting other third parties set the tone for defining a character’s “worth” to other players (this is essentially how players use IO).
There’s a VERY REAL need for players to be able to verify a random players previous experience (which is what sites like IO solve for), but is previous experience on paper a good SOLE metric for M+? Obviously not. I’d say it prolly even hurts M+ on the whole.
M+ is small group content where everyone matters, but there’s tons of ways you can perform well in one situation and perform poorly in others. There’s also tons of ways to just flat out game the system with carries. The IO rating concept needs to be expanded to include how well players work together, and thats something only blizzard can do through backend player analytics and collecting more kinds of metrics around player behavior. It doesn’t even have to be deeply engineered: there’s no reason why at the end of a run there isn’t a mvp thumbs up or thumbs down system that only you can see which feeds into a backend system that recommends players in queue to you. On the front end there can be an icon next to suggested players indicating that you’re more likely to have fun playing with that person in your group. KISS.
With regard to people leaving early, there could also be something like a deserter icon next to the characters name in the dungeon tool to indicate the player has left m+ early. Thats an easy metric to capture and display.
All in all, there’s just a lot of things blizzard should be developing to help with group content.
Yeah blizzard, do something about people not wanting to carry me in m+, i jebait them into my key but when they realize that the group suck they leave, punish them so they are forced to carry me!.
