We should never lose raid tiers for class balance, class balance is impossible. Enough expacs have been ruined for that.
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Finally someone said it, bravo. M+ is trash tier content and actively making the game worse.
They should just be challenging dungeons with new enemies, maybe environmental hazards or something, added boss mechanics to increase the difficulty, etc. where you use all your class abilities to their fullest, in a slow, methodical slog, not some gotta-go-fast Greater Rift simulator…
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Blizzard is not getting rid of m+, it is a massive cash cow for them with all the paid carries.
And people genuinely enjoy it.
The trend is for less and less testing and more content released unfinished. They will continue to push the limits to see how much players will let them get away with.
I didn’t say there’s no mechanics although that fight is a pretty straightforward ff14 fight.
Drop on markers cw adjust fight so that should really only take you a pull to figure out or two tops.
The room is designed so you can basically drop on a maker. In ff14 you’d make it more meele friendly but dropping it closer in.
It’s new to wow but I’ve done something similar in ff14 I call that one the ff14 boss. Honestly that should be done correctly by anyone first time .
Okay team get a circle you drop on the big glowly marker then you slide cw. Groups I saw fail usually had greedy meele.
would like to see the source of this.
people moved to delves because they essentially eliminated the reason to do m+ below a level 6. like there is absolutely no reason other than io/crests to do a key below a 6 now. the gear is way better and easier to get in a delve and it sets you up to go into +7s where m+ really starts anyways. i mean i love m+ and i still slogged my way through delves because it was literally free gear that was insanely efficient to get. i wouldn’t be surprised if it gets nerfed. that being said i hated every minute of doing delves because they simply suck to do. they are boring and i practically fall asleep doing them. im glad they are behind me now and im back in m+. what i would like to see is how many people are still doing delves compared to when they dropped. basically what im getting at is people play the game for different reasons to paint it with a broad stroke brush is silly. while you say people only did m+ because of gear and that its to stressful. im on the other end of that spectrum and i love how exciting m+ is because anything less is incredibly boring and dull to me
It’s numbers…
They can literally make every dps class have equal damage.
They can easily make every healer equal in utility.
They can easily give every class good interrupts and CC.
Every tank class with equal damage mitigation.
They won’t because devs have their class that they play. They don’t want equal, they want their class to be a little bit better that the others.
It stinks but the lobbying from various devs/execs will influence “balance” overall.
Since it’s only numbers it should, in theory, be dead simple to make all the classes and specs near perfectly equal in every metric.
It will never happen but it could if the devs/execs wanted the classes to be equally balanced.
No meta builds or S tier spec. Just everyone playing the class they like and doing as much damage or healing as other classes.
This would require them actually understanding how numbers work, as well. And, let me tell you, based on some of the adjustments they’ve had to revert, they don’t.
But yes, you are correct, if they wanted to, they could normalize all damage to be within 1-3% of one another. If they actually used the data properly, they could run in-house sims with a custom program to check ability adjustment impacts on the overall profile, and go from there.
At least for “most optimal gear” situations, they could. You’d still have massive variances based on skill and gear. That’s always going to be an issue. But they could easily tune theoretical caps to the same margins.
They just won’t, because that takes some actual extensive work. Much easier to just slash the over-performing abilities of anything looking like it’s out of what they consider to be “okay”.
Is that why like…
No game in the history of MMOs has accomplished this?
If that is your goal, remove classes completely.
Everyone plays the exact same class with the exact same load out. The only way that will happen.
To be honest, the average person complaining about this does not seem to understand basic class design.
Then why does every single game in existence have this issue? Whenever you have different classes, different specs, this will happen.
The only time it does not happen is if everyone plays the same exact class.
Valid statement, as I agree. But, coming from an understanding of the Fury warrior and Outlaw nerfs in the first week of the raid, the nerfs were done in spite of actual testing and data from PTR showing their damage caps being well within normal performance once tier sets were factored in.
The developers looked at a single week of data from Warcraftlogs, saw the specs doing more because they had damage reliant on their kits, not tier sets, with extremely low tier set gains, and still hit them.
The data was there from PTR. They had people providing spreadsheets before raid released. They still did the nerf, and had to revert them almost entirely because they were not necessary and dropped the classes to the bottom of the charts for 2 weeks.
Again, because the time investment and energy required to constantly keep this sort of balancing up over the long term. This wasn’t a negative comment, it was stating that it is very much so easier on a game design level to monitor what things are causing better performance, and target them, instead of micromanaging the kits on the back end before release.
It’s far easier to balance responsively with other people giving you the data than it is to try and run internal simming just to appease people’s want for perfect balance.
It is possible, it’s not reasonable to expect.
Those are some really strong assumptions I do not have the information concerning. So I cant really back them.
I dont know what they looked at.
Are they perfect? No. Do they make some stupid decisions? Sure.
But the implication that everything could be balanced perfect if they just “ran some sims”, to me. Is a bit of an exaggeration.
I’ve had Diabolic ritual interrupt my spell queues, straight up cancel my cast if the buff drops before I cast it, and sometimes the pitlord doesn’t even spawn.
The ritual is really wonky sometimes and just doesn’t work. It kind of sucks because Demonology is known for its ultra smooth rotation, and this has made it rather rough
You highly overestimate the value of m+. It adds nothing of value to the game overall and contributes to more toxicity and balance issues than even pvp does, and that’s saying something.
I beg to differ. Removing a pillar from the game would not only cause a GIGANTIC LOSS of sub revenue, but would cause even more imbalance because:
How are people in dedicated groups supposed to be rewarded if there is no M+? Go to delves? Sorry, but that ilvl is capped at 616. Not good enough for some classes (cough fire mage cough)
That is IF they want to go raiding. Which they won’t, because the playerbase can be toxic.
a very large amount of the population would drop this game. you severely underestimate what the m+ community does for blizzards time played metrics. this game would have to get probably 5x grindier to make up for the loss. getting rid of m+ means we go back to the days of once your done raiding for the week you either pvp which most people dont/didnt or your just drop the game till next week and play something else unless you choose to play a alt in a super alt unfriendly environment
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Their own metrics last time we had data show around 1% pushing the high end mythics and around 5% total even touching mythic at all. If we assume that the game has 10m active players (yes it’s possibly lower) you’re talking 500k at the high end or 100k at the low end. In most contexts is that alot of people, sure. However it’s a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. So no I’m not underestimating anything. And no the game wouldn’t “have to get 5x grindier” at all. The game survived and thrived long before mythic was ever a thing. For that matter mythic was only ever meant to be a vanity thing to get a few extra pieces of gear. It was NEVER meant to be what it is today.
Unlike years past we now have close to 20 years worth of content they could do something with if they wanted, such as sticking some gear on there and letting people have at it. We also have delves they could do more with now as well. So the idea that we don’t have content or things to do is just plain wrong.
Even if that 5% of people go I guarantee you that you would see alot more return after the game is no longer balanced around m+ like it was never supposed to be to start with. If they actually did something with the content we have as well, you’ll get even more back. And even if worst comes to worst and those 5% are gone to never return, I see it as a win if it gets rid of the horrible balancing around m+ and the toxicity that goes along with m+. I despise pvp with a passion anymore, but I would rather grind pvp non-stop for an entire expac than touch m+.
I’m also glad you mention so called alt unfriendly environments, because we’ve had several expacs where it was super easy to pick up gear on alts, with Pandaria being probably one of the most if not the most successful examples with it since you had the coins to let you cheese extra loot if lucky. Far as down time goes with raids, what you do in your down time is up to you, but don’t sit there and pretend like you can’t do something on an alt or similar. Especially with 13 classes you could play. I highly doubt you’re taking 13 toons through content and gearing them all up at once.
so you want to get rid of m+ (stupid idea but hey everyones alowed to have them) and have delves +…
yup cause now everything is balanced around mythic raiding and that gets the most toxic. what are you gonna do then cry till they remove raiding also?
you obviously dont if you would rather grind it than run keys
you mean the waste of gold rolls? the thing that gave less gold than it was worth if you didnt get gear? that was 1 of the worst things they did since all it did was add another layer of slot machines you needed to play to win gear in this rng heavy game.
cool so i finished raiding on my main so ill go raid on my alt then thats pretty much what your saying to do. people will get burnt out and even less people will play. your advocating for the opposite of capitalism. the goal is to make money not push money away. and i actually am playing EVERY class every season and i gear them up to between normal/ heroic raid ilvl depending on how much i enjoyed playing it while having 2-3 at mythic to gear cap. jusy because you dont play everything doesnt mean others dont. you can only go back and do old stuff for just so long before theres a combo of i did it all and i got everything i wanted to do so now what
Read what I said instead of trying to put words in my mouth. I don’t want there to be mythic anything because it’s cancerously toxic.
Ah yes there’s the gaslight of “y u cryin bro” as expected. Thanks for proving my point about toxicity surrounding mythic. Anyone mentions anything to do with mythic that’s not immediately praising it as the best thing to ever happen to wow, and the mythic cool-aid drinkers come out in droves with your hive mind mentality to defend your precious like a herd of Gollums.
Unfortunately for you I actually have created content for other games for over 20 years now. And I can tell you right now you do NOT balance a game around all of 1%-5% of your playerbase and expect it to be received well by everyone else. You can tilt the scales towards the more difficult side without sacrificing quality like they’ve done for far too long now. Problem is the mythic fanboys stomping their little feet and throwing temper tantrums when they’re not the center of attention.
And show me anywhere I ever said to remove raiding. Quote the exact line because that’s not what I said. So stop trying to put words in my mouth. I’m saying go back to what works. This game survived without mythic anything before and can do so again without any great losses. And if people like you end up quitting who take mythic way too seriously, I see that as a win win.
Holy entitlement much. You are not entitled to a drop off every single boss just because you walk through the door. You gonna cry about raiding being a waste of gold and time if they don’t hand you a piece of gear off every single boss? Because that’s what you’re doing by whining about the token. Token doesn’t give you a piece of gear, so you whine about it being a waste. You sit here and whine about RNG, yet you go into raids where it’s RNG if you’ll even get a piece of gear from the boss or not, but it’s the tokens that could give extra stuff that are the problem and not raiding itself. And you really expect me to take that double standard of yours seriously? Thanks for proving you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Do you not know what hyperbole is or that two things can be true at once? IF in that scenario my only choices were to play pvp in WoW or run a bunch of mythics, I would rather run the pvp for a WoW fix. At least the pvp guys don’t run around pretending their the gift of the titans to WoW and there’s actual variance in the gameplay unlike mythic that’s the same song and dance each time. At least most pvp guys can respect if you beat them fair and square. Mythic fanboys will always have excuses as to why they didn’t chart top of why they’re the best and people need to invite them.
Unfortunately for you we have many years of history prior to mythic existing demonstrating that we do NOT need it for the game to survive and thrive. Mythic per blizzard’s own stats and data represent around 5% of the entire playerbase tops. Those mythic runners are NOT needed for the game to survive nor is mythic. Whine all you like but the numbers are what the numbers are. It’s funny to me that you whine about lockouts and stuff yet supposedly have played this game for awhile now lockouts and all.
Should they remove mythic and you’ve cleared your major lockouts, then if you don’t want to do an alt through raids, go do some pvp, delves, old stuff, achievements, old quests or what have you. You’re telling me that in a game with 20 years worth of content that you really can’t find something to do if you’re serious about playing? I’m sorry but I’m calling shenanigans on that. Likewise by your own logic, just because other people may take a slight break and not play every single day of every single week doesn’t mean other people won’t keep playing. You don’t get to have it both ways dude. You can’t sit there and say “everyone will get burnt out and quit” then turn around and say “just because you might not play it doesn’t mean other people won’t.” Those 2 things don’t go together like that. You play any game long enough and you’ll eventually do everything you want to do, so let’s not pretend like this is exclusive to WoW. Mythic at best delays the inevitable for 5% of the playerbase, and does nothing for the other 95%. So what about those other 95% of people? What are they supposed to do?
I’ve already told you some of what they could do such as revamping and scaling older content to let it still be doable as just one suggestion. They could also do a random dungeon generator of sorts if they wanted and let people blitz those. They could bring back world events more often, and utilize content they actually have already. But apparently that’s not good enough for some people. So you tell me, what exactly do you propose they do since you seem to have ideas of what they shouldn’t do? Tell me what you solution is since you think you know all.
good for you. how about a cookie for a very special guy.
its like you know nothing about blizzard when you say stuff like this. the reason why i say this is keys were already tuned around 10s and they keep punishing m+ so that mythic raiding looks better so if were getting rid of m+ there obviously gonna tune around mythic raiding cause thats all they seem to care about. its adorable you havent realized this
its not about you its about blizzard. im not putting words in your mouth im telling you exactly what they will do but your to simple to understand that.
and thats why your probably bad at your job. pushing people away pushes money away and thats the opposite of how making money works.
when u go a entire season getting 0 loot and the only gear you get is traded to you from other people then you can talk to me about entitlement until then stop acting privileged because you obviously have no idea what your talking about. yea raiding is super rng heavy and like i have already said until you go a entire season not getting loot dont talk to me about rng. i will no longer be responding to someone who has no idea what they are talking about. and im embarrassed for you about your poor reading comprehension