I guess you’re right. Bad example, that’s on me.
My point really is that shadow isn’t inherently bad like some poeple here say. There are issues, sure, I’m not denying that.
Never said shadow was in a good spot in DF. It’s in a terrible spot in terms of gameplay. SL problems just seems worst, none of the issues are being addressed + the trees introduce new problems.
I’ve never said shadow was perfect in SL, but it’s still fun… that’s my opinion ofc. I’m not saying I don’t want the issues solved. In fact, if they don’t fix the AoE problems of the spec, I might abandon ship. Because I mostly do M+, and I often switch out to shadow because I’ve got other friends who heal. And I’m not having as much fun as I’d like to while I m+ as shadow.
Well it’s been 29 days since we were told we were last getting an update and haven’t heard or seen anything.
2 Likes
That’s exactly what I have been saying…
But if someone is about to die, you have a choice to make. Save them or refresh SW:P… your going to save them first then cast SW:P.
I played as a healer for the 1st half of classic back in the day. Then in Wrath with Dual spec as an option, I started healing again pending fight. Because of my inherent look out for health bars, I tend to use GCD’s to pop someone a shield or drop out of shadow and flash heal them up if it looks like they might die. But I quickly learned that in a setting where you have dedicated healers, you need to trust them to do that while you focus on your primary role.
What I’m saying is that at the end of the day if you let SW:P drop off in order to keep your team alive the. That’s expected to happen. Which in turns should mean DPS as a healer should be akin to healing as a DPS. It can happen sure, but only when I got nothing to do without feeling like I could be doing what I should be doing which is DPS. Like if I need to move and have no DPS button I can press, then I can use that spare GCD to cast Power Word: Shield. It’s not my primary function to do that, but when I have spare moments I can do so.
As a healer, you just have more spare moments when people are avoiding taking damage as much as possible thus freeing you up to do DPS. But if everyone was in the brink of death, you will do what you can to heal them up prior to any DPS. Obviously this is slightly different with Disc as it’s designed to heal more through offensive abilities. But this is mostly directed at Holy if you followed the conversation.
I’m not sure why we’re having this discussion… You’re kind of stating the obvious here. That doesn’t mean sw:p isn’t an important piece of our healers toolkit.
Retails is designed around healers doing damage when the group is safe. M+ is all about the timer and even the healer’s dps helps in the end when you push high keys and every second counts. Doesn’t mean the healer doesn’t focus on healing first. This season in particular has shifted the meta for healers because there are a lot of damages events to heal through and fewer occasion to do damages. Healers are switching gears to double down on healing (which I feel is great)
Still, it’s expected that holy and disc do a lot of sw:pain regardless.
Well, in m+, high keys, you’re expected to do as much as humanly possible to stay alive, even as a dps. It’s not just a rare occurrence anymore on both ends…
For priest yes. But other healers have to be offensive to unlock all of their healing toolkit. Namely, mw monk or hpal. But yeah I know. I’m just not getting your points of why we’re discussing this? The fact is that holy presses sw:pain a lot…
I mentioned a similar issue about 1000 posts ago.
3 Likes
I agree, I’m thinking of making a thread to accumulate the meaningful feedback on the trees, but I feel that thread would degenerate as well…
Sorry, I guess I’m contributing a lot to this mess… I stopped for a while but the weird suggestions kept pilling and I feel like someone got to argue a bit to show that not everyone agrees…
There are just too many walls of text. I’m sure there are some really good ideas somewhere in there, but I don’t have the patience to sift through it. I’d feel bad if it were MY job to do that…
We are having this discussion because clearly my comment was taken out of context. The context being that I am not saying SW:P is not being used, only that it’s an afterthought. Everything you said suggests as much. It’s the lowest priority for a healer to do DPS if it does not contribute to healing when healing is needed. Therefore it’s rare compared to the rest of your priority buttons. The more chaos that is happening which in turn has a higher likelihood of people taking damage shifts the priority in healing. Only when the requirement of healing being lower will then allow moments to cast SW:P.
it’s really not though…
you basically start each pull in m+ by dotting at least 3-4 targets… doesn’t feel rare to me…
start of every encounters. refreshing is relatively easy to do as well between heals… explosive affix where you’re expected to do at least 50% of them as the healer…
its more used than other spells of holy’s toolkit. Like holy nova for example.
that’s always happening though. You always have globals to spare for weaving in sw:p, that’s the easiest part of holy dps toolkit…
Omg dude really?
Yes you open with SW:P because you don’t need to heal… I stated this.
It’s really simple… if you have to choose between healing or DPSing when healing is needed, you heal. That means DPS takes a back seat. Which means it’s rare in relation to the primary goal of being a healer. It’s a low priority. You may seem to use it often, but that only means that you are not needed to heal.
You are making this more complicated than it is.
Edit: Maybe just go check on warcraft logs. Just see for yourself how often it’s casted in both m+ and raid… But wtv, let’s refocus on subject shale we? This is really off the scope of this topic…
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No, you are. You literally stated “Shadow Word: Pain - Holy wont use that often.” and people were saying it is one of the most used spells. You even said:
Which was not the case.
You are passionate we get it, we’re too, I loved the work you’ve put on your trees though I prefer current iteration of Disc and Shadow, but I see the point; Nevertheless take a step back and accept when you’re wrong and stop distorting other’s comments.
“Mind Blast - Holy wont use that often if at all.”
Mind Blast and Mindgames will be used as part of holy rotation too because preventing damage is better than healing.
6 Likes
It really is not that complicated.
Healers should heal
DPS should DPS.
Can they do the other? Sure. But is that the priority? No.
When you don’t have any supporting talents or synergies built into your kit, then that typically means its not that important compared to the use of the rest of your kit.
That is all I am saying, It would be “rare” in that its not the primary function.
You don’t bring a healer for the DPS and you don’t bring a DPS to heal.
That is literally what I am saying, its RARE to do something your not supposed to be doing it. Even though in actuality you might actually press a DPS button more often than a healing button but that is NOT the intention, the intention is to heal more then you DPS. If everything goes perfect, you would do less healing than DPS. If everything goes wrong, you will do more healing than DPS. If healing is not that big of a deal, then you just don’t bring a healer.
No, the intention is to complete the content…
Yes. And if you can get away with 5 DPS just smashing away then cool if that works for that content.
But when you bring a healer, you would expect the healer to do primary healing. Therefore any DPS should play second fiddle to any healing needed. That means as a Holy Priest, using SW:P would be a rare priority that comes AFTER everything else is not required.
I think the issues is when I use the word “Rare”, its being taken as actions per minute (APM) instead of the “priority” goal the role is brought for. My meaning was referring to the “reason” to bring Holy is NOT to dps. Its just a happy perk, but healing is the primary reason your would bring a Holy Priest.
You didn’t say rare. Is this reverse distorting?
I know far more than one player who doesn’t like mythic raiding but love Disc. Even moreso people that loved disc before Shadowlands tried to implement absorb healing again through spirit shell and fumbled it very badly nerfing the spec several times to try and force it to fit.
We both have anecdotal experiences which support what we think about the matter. What we can argue, then, is the merits of bringing back WoD’s playstyle. I’ve already done this with you without ever questioning your experience level - you just didn’t like it and called me elitist anyway because I brought up how disc fares in high level content through the years since legion.
I mean that or post a meme.
You can’t pretend to be an honest actor here, you’ve been anything but - and that’s why a lot of people treat your posts specifically with disdain.
This is also just a weird takeaway. Back and forth discussion where both parties push back on each other can also be useful for feedback. But this is also coming from you - the person who has posted so many talents and trees that it’s almost impossible to keep up with it all, and when people interact with you on any given talent you refer to a wholistic vision you have that’s impossible to figure out without going through every one of your posts since your last talent tree post.
If anything, you’re obfuscating your own feedback, here by not condensing it and continually adding to it piecemeal. And if you don’t think that post about the same people posting repeatedly applied to you in anyway, I don’t know what to tell you.
Sure there’s times when this thread has been derailed to a weird idealogical place, and I had my part in that once (and cut a second conversation before it happened again).
But it is OK to just disagree - there’s nothing wrong with that. It also can build healthy discussion. But I don’t know why several people (not even just the two quoted) are so adamant in this thread that other people are absolutely in the wrong but too myopic to recognize when they themselves have derailed.
5 Likes
Often = rare?
I mean I didn’t think its that far of a stretch.
Antonyms for often
rarely