Purge of the Wicked. It’s a stronger dot that spreads to another target when you cast penance on the innitial target. They even added more spreading option in DF disc tree.
Yep, that’s true…but this is also a reason to bring a paladin in your group. Pvp content is a really different story where you fight in even smaller groups. So I feel fine for them being different. To me adding cc’s and cc breakers should be thread with carefully. But I do agree that this would be useful and I do have a few cases where I’d want this for sure.
Well. Aoe are already constrained for atonement healing. So its shouldn’t be so bad in itself. But like I said. So far in DF healers aren’t pushed all that much for good aoe dmg.
Didn’t mention that but disc already jas procs off of SW:P to get empowered penances. So the 2 are kinda redundant…
Well, that’s a bit of a problem for class tree design/balance in my opinion…
I’d rather you make your design work with holy and disc that are already setup for DF. Disc is rather decent imo, even if not everyone is happy with it. My comment on your setup is mostly considering the current trees combined with yours.
I feel the idea with DF is to give something close to what the game currently offers and add a bit more (be it new stuff or old stuff coming back) and trying to make up a bit for what the class/spec lacks.
Your setup turns priest upside down I feel. Because you’re adding SO MUCH stuff… (be it new or old…)
You already get psychic horror. I feel adding another ST cc like that is out of place. They didn’t even bring this one out of shadow tree for healers to get it in their first iteration…
I know but like I said, It’s yet another cd that will be used in disc ramp. I really don’t think we need yet another button to line up cd in the ramp… you even created a ralent to line up shadow cds with PI but you’re creating that same problen just to the left of it on the tree…
Maybe shining force should be an option in the class tree instead. A choice vs mind bomb? I mean shining force has ita own uses… might as well incorporate it in aside to those options.
Surely. They already removed stuff off atonement heal… but it’s always sad to remove interractions…
I still feel it’s too strong. Its like a reactive touch of karma… that’s an insane defensive to add.
I agree that 1 spec shouln’t take the back seat for the other 2. But it feels bad that some spella do attonement while others don’t…
Holy doesn’t have it and hasnt for a while though? If ever?
I don’t think this is safe to say at all. Honestly if Priest and/or Druid don’t have changes tomorrow it’s safer to say the classes are dead in the water and to abandon ship.
Could be an either or.
But if that’s not a good enough reason, PotW is instant cast. Meaning you don’t have to root yourself and complete the cast of Mind Sear.
There are pros/cons to either method. But the point is that the choice exists.
Well I’m fine with the removing it or staying. I honestly don’t think it would be that much of an issue.
I would think that base shadow damage should be low and its the shadow talents in both Shadow and Disc that would amplify them up to make them good.
I don’t see that at all. Most things I have added to the Class talent tree exist in a silo situation that both wont have nearly any impact on the mechanics of other specs and have been apart of the Priest class/specs in some prior iteration.
The only major ability that changes things up is Archangel / Dark Archangel. But I would argue that something like that should be a welcomed change and a bridge to Class identity. Just like all Paladin specs use Avenging Wrath and the specific spec modifier versions.
We need a solid ability to rally behind that has similar effects across all 3 specs.
That is the main reason IMO why the talent trees are in the terrible state they are in. Because there is no common ground direction to latch onto and expand upon.
I may not have built a tree for Holy or Disc, but they are in a better state than Shadow and the class tree imo. Holy is lacking talents and we already have an era where we had Archangel / Dark Archangel as part of every spec. I don’t think its that difficult or much of a stretch to get implement it into Holy and Disc in a creative way.
The best I could do is just move things around and add a couple things that work around it off the top of my head. But I would think I would do a disservice compared to others that have a more in-depth understanding of Holy and Disc.
We also have to factor in the revelation that the Class dev went away and now we are in an even dire lack of direction and leadership. This would be the best time for ones that truly care and understand the class and its spec to provide as much as we can to expedite the design process… even to go as far as adjusting or creating a brand new talent tree from scratch lol.
Was not an issue in Cata. We had both Physic Horror and Paralysis. I don’t see an issue having both now. Again, you see all the other classes getting a lot of stuff back from old. I really don’t see this is much of an issue.
I really don’t see how this is such a big deal that your trying to make out.
Is it because you think you have to press another button along with the current buttons you press? If so, you can macro it to something else as Inner Focus has always been off the GCD. I always used it with my Devouring Plague back in Classic.
If that’s not the issue, I don’t see why just not picking that and getting something else instead isn’t an option.
Your argument seems to come from a personal preference. Not a functional one. I have played many version of many class and specs where the “ideal” talent or style of play is not what the “sims” would suggest. But if it doesn’t fit my style and its more trouble then its worth, then I actually perform better doing something I am more comfortable with. This is the entire reason for these talents as they are suppose to give that plethora of choice. Otherwise it would act like the Legion Artifacts in which you only had the choice of what you pick first, but in the end you eventually get everything. That is not how these are designed. They should be choices based off of playstyle choice. The only issue comes when its just doesn’t function for a spec… Like Smite with Shadow… its a thing, you can do it… but you never will lol. But I just don’t think you can win with every talent. At least with Inner Focus, it works for all specs. So I don’t see an issue with it.
If I end up making a Holy tree, I will probably move it out and into the class tree lol.
The only question then becomes… Should the option be Shining Force + Mind Bomb or Shining force + Physic Scream duration reduction. I like the Duration reduction + Petrified to use in places like 5 mans where you can interrupt often with out adding more button bloat. That is why I have both those options leading to Cascade as having passive changes to Physic Scream with the option for another button to press.
I just think that’s sometimes you have to swallow a pill that you rather not.
Having cool abilities being restricted because of 1 specs interaction is no fun. Best to just adjust the outlier specs issue with it… if its an optional ability that is. Different case if its core and part of the class / spec.
I guess I haven’t paid enough attention to holy not having Shadowfiend / Mind Bender.
But you see, that just highlights the current issue where all the abilities we had in the past as a “class” as been sliced and diced and we are having less and less of a common ground between all specs.
But at least with the current DF Class Talent, Holy no longer has to due without. But I guess unless major changes happen, they might not need it. We shall see.
Ill End with this…
IMO I think the structure and pathing of my version of the class tree accomplishes a lot of good things. It brings back old fan favorite abilities while also allowing a lot more freedom to path the direction you want.
So with that being said, I think the main issue is in some of the capstone talents. I would say this… If there are better ideas to replace those with something. I am all ears. But the structure / path design I think is in a solid state and I think it would be hard pressed to change it for the better. But I would loved to be proven wrong.
It spreads to 1 target. Not 28… this while thing feels loke you don’t give a f*** that disc dosnt interract well with your idea. PotW has been there for a while and one of its primary reason to exist is to ease out the spread problem. There is no way its worth the investment of mindaear does a better job a it…
I completwly agree. And we already have a few of those. My problem is that your archangels are a mandatory pick and you seem to be willing to make the 3 specs revolve around them… which os upsetting the balance of 3 specs for the sakr of you not willing to play void form…
Yeah yeah. We’re already throwing in rapture, trinkets, fiend/mindbender, evang/spiritshell as well as all ou dps cds in there. Lets just add another cd in the moment, every 1.5 minutes where disc really heals… if anything, I’d be more working toward reducing effectiveness of our ramps to make disc a bit less bursty but be more useful in between ramps.
Do you think we arent maccroing a lot of these already?
You are basically just making disc dive deeper into its own problems…
Except disc does that already. Sw:death doesnt do atonement healingm and they keep trying yo add this back in some ways making ua hopeful without success. We have it again in disc df tree. We’ll see if it stays.
Maybe it’s true for shadow but I feel there are a lot of disjointed abilitied for the healers.
Also bringing back old fan favorites is fine. We do get a few of those in light wrath or lighwell. Doesn’t mean we should throw fan favorites left and right and that it works with all 3 specs just becausr its in the class tree…
I’ll keep thinkering on suggestions otherwise. Have a great one
From the issue you are bringing up… It seems its actually the reverse in that it interacts TOO well.
It’s not that I don’t give an F… its that it seems any time Holy and Shadow have some cool or interesting idea / interaction… The only pitfall seems to always be because of how it Interacts with Discipline. If Discipline is so fragile, maybe it needs to have a hard look at it… This is even more pronounced based on what you say later on in your responses.
How about this…
Searing Pain
Mind Sear applies Shadow Word: Pain to every target hit upon its completion of its channel. Each target afflicted with Shadow Word: Pain deals 5% less damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 30 sec.
Yes, because I think overall the class and specs will benefit form it. I am trying to change the square peg back into a round one so we are not bashing our heads on the wall trying to force different shapes through the same hole… its not working as evidence by the state of the talent trees. We wouldn’t be at this stage having this discussion if that wasn’t the case.
I don’t want to play Voidform because it is mechanically flawed. If it wasn’t you would see a lot better talent trees that support the playstyle as a whole… but you don’t, all you see is random addon abilities with no interaction to the entire way Shadow plays.
I would argue that my Shadow Talent tree actually offers more Voidform playstyle choices in addition to other playstyles people would like to play.
Different strokes for different folks.
Now this is interesting. See I was trying to explore the issues and ideas for Discipline a while back as other have as well. But all that I keep hearing is Discipline is FINE. The best response that said otherwise was really just a number issue. But the Discipline as a whole works fine and doesn’t need anything.
But from what you are saying, it seems there are underlining issues that the spec currently deals with and then I would assume that people are just accepting the issues instead of addressing them and trying to find a solution.
I’ll take your word on that I suppose.
but again, it seems the common problem to anything Holy or Shadow related having any impact on Discipline seems to stall any engagement because of how sensitive / fragile Discipline is where the slightest adjustment can potentially throw the entire spec out of whack for good or for ill. THAT is an issue with Discipline that it either needs to be excluded from some Holy and Shadow interactions OR it needs to have its core base redesigned so that problem wont exist.
I do admit, the top left portion of my tree (basically unchanged from the current DF version) is the weakest part of the tree. I don’t have any good ideas to change things in that area… At least not as of yet. Open to suggestions.
When its utility that competes with other utility or strong capstone talents, I see no issue at all bringing this back. I see this all over the other classes. I don’t see why it seems you think Priest Class Talent Tree needs to be excluded or walk a very fine line. They are not game breaking so I am really up in arms on this issue.
That’s what we could hope for, but… I don’t know if it’s even safe to think this.
I feel like we’re still going to be pathing into one route with no leniency for taking extra utility or have to sacrifice something if we want it. I hope not, but it’s not looking good.
In a 24 docks last night, on the first pack before the cannon barrage section I had so many ghosts going out, it was just a giant wave of purple. It was so sick.
Yes, disc is fine. That doesn’t mean the spec doesn’t have issues. The issue that I’m talking about is specific to raiding, where disc is super strong in its ramp window and does nothing outside of that window. Making the spec supremely strong to cover for high raid damage on a 1.5 minute timer.
This is fun to play, but heavily relies on boss design. And it doesn’t scale so well outside of 20mans.
While I like to play that, and disc is super strong for those scenarios, the spec doesn’t shine that much if the fights aren’t designed this way for raid damage.
Playing venthyr disc does help with this right now. It’s not the strongest way to play disc but it works still. Disc DF tree is able to offer something similar too. There could be improvments ofc, and the shadow-cov setup could be made to be viable in raid for those kind of encounters as well, who knows
It’s more spec weakness that should be addressed via the tree I feel. While the niche that disc covers should stay, it def could use some tools to be better when the fight isn’t in that niche. You’re suggestion creates free ramps so it goes in the opposite direction I feel, while adding yet another cd to the ramp itslef…
The more I talk about this the less I like it. More often than not I don’t complete my channels, because that’s the strenght of channelled spells, they can be interrupted before they end to do something else and still provide damage/healing/ressource gen for a lesser price as well.
The dmg reduction procs with the spread? Or is it a constant thing with this talent? I still feel 5% is a lot though, most equivalences in the game RN or in DF are 3% (Sin rogue talent, disc priest Lenience, pala devo aura…)
I agree with that, but again, you speak mainly for shadow. Healers right now don’t have all that many cc’s. Silence is basically a caster CC in itself (which is why most people talk about bringing just an interrupt in the class tree, because silence is hella strong for pvp).
I’m all for silence for all priest tbh, just that I’m questionning things in regard to balance is really all this is
Otherwise, tbh, the more I check other classes trees, the more I feel you’re right to add so much stuff. Although, all the specs seems to be starting from SL design/balance and trying to cover the weaknesses of the specs, which isn’t how you’ve built your trees (Not saying your approach is wrong) Maybe this is why it clashes so much with my perspective on the game in regards to balance
Most disc players agree that the spec tree is very good for Disc, and significantly more powerful than current disc, but go off I guess? You keep saying you’re not a troll, but you only seem to come on the forums to troll about current disc and say you want old disc back.
It’s OK to acknowledge that the DF disc tree is good and needs minor changes at most and at the same time also want WoD disc back and state that.
It’s not good, there are no old school discipline options. Many other spec trees have options from the past. Sorry this doesn’t conform to your world view that the current iteration should be left unmolested. But players are tired of the current iteration - the ones who aren’t will be fine with whatever changes happen to the spec.
We’ve got Light’s wrath, it’s just not old enough to your likings
You’re just too biased toward old disc and can’t make constructive judgement toward current disc
That’s why I worded it the way I did. If you really want to mass SW:P, then you need to force plant yourself and complete the cast. It comes at that extreme cost.
However, the SW:P damage reduction is passive. This is why its basically a passive effect that Shadow brings because Shadow will always have SW:P on targets. Where as with Holy and Disc, its more optional.
Edit:
How about this then…
Remove the Mind Sear Aspect.
Pain Reduction
Targets afflicted with Shadow Word: Pain deals 3% less damage.
My perspective and experience is this…
My entire history playing Shadow has resulted in every encounter I have (or nearly) during PvP, I usually only win because I outplay my opponent “mentally” I have to juke the crap out of him in him thinking he thinks I am an easy kill or get him to think I’m going to be doing X when I am really going to be doing Y. Meaning, I am not taking serious as I am just a face to be punched and run down into the ground.
I say this because I understand where this comes from. When I play any other class, I am able to defeat any Priest I come across because I know exactly what they are capable of and I play to that knowledge and capitalize on it and utterly massacre them.
So what I am left to assume over the years is that the “threat” factor of coming across a Priest is low and so I used that to disguise what I am doing and then quickly reverse course and dunk on my opponent. But I feel that I shouldn’t have to think / play like this because I don’t have the same feeling when playing any other class that I am unfamiliar with because I don’t get the same disrespect as on my priest because I think those other classes are a legitimate threat in the eyes of my opponents.
I think that comes down to the lack of tools we have to deal with a situation. The only time I felt I didn’t lack any tool and had everything I needed was in WoD and maybe a bit in MoP. But in Cata, you had no way to escape when melee got on you and you had to really out gear someone or outplay them to come out on top as it was so easy to lock Shadow down. This is where Paralysis was extremely useful to make room to execute what I needed when you combo with the 3 stacks of 30% Mind Spike making Mind Blast crit effect. Wrath we were pretty good, only major bump was dealing with Death Knights… but that might just have been the tuning of them as when I made a DK, I was just un killable and destroyed everything I came across with so much ease it made me disgusted lol.
Anyway, the point is that I often find myself coming into a new expansion and needing to deal with everyone’s new toys and either priest got nothing or maybe a support ability etc. It wasn’t until MoP and WoD where we got some useful tools to deal with threats solo. Then those were taken away in Legion. Mix that with the total playstyle change for Shadow to be crap in short form content and the class for me was just DOA and I moved on to DH but always wanting to come back to Priest.
This is why I want the utility back as an option, because I don’t want to have to constantly need to deal with all the new stuff every other class brings while I either get nothing useful or get stuff taken away.
”
