Rogues are great. BM (hunter) is great. Preservation is great. Guardian is great. Blood DK is great. All shaman specs are great.
How are you this far behind?
Great in what sense?
That their talent trees arenât weird? Ok, what does that have to do with DPS or HPS, which is what I responded to you about? You specifically said that evokerâs doing more DPS than priests. Ok, cool, I guess.
Iâm not saying their spec trees arenât good. Iâm saying we donât know if the class is good or doing great DPS yet. Rogue already has at least one glaring problem in that Assassination got a whole new party/raid utility in Atrophic poison that the other specs donât have. Thatâs an extreme power differential between Assassination and the other two rogue specs. So the combat/sub trees might be great, but will they as specs be valued? Possibly not. Itâs a problem that wants for solving.
Similarly, the priest trees might have problems, but when it comes to DPS/HPS we just donât know enough yet to say the class is good or bad.
I wonder if anyone has considered that maybe 600 posts of people having an ego brawl with each other instead of providing constructive feedback for the devs is a little detrimental maybe? If I was a dev, Iâd sure not want to skim this thread for feedback when so many of the posts are people arguing about other specs performance.
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Thereâs about 4 threads on this forum alone that have great feedback posts in them, thereâs a lengthy post on WoWhead, thereâs the Maximum interviews and Publikâs videos.
Thereâs no excuse for blizzard not to see feedback, and if they arenât going to communicate with us, itâs just going to keep building up. If youâre not going to look through to find the feedback that is relevant, you shouldnât be a dev.
Everybody is just tired of this same song and dance with priest, weâve provided a ton of feedback since SL alpha and weâve been largely ignored, so this is kind of what happens, the conversations start to warp as we keep trying to find new ways to say old things.
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Donât worry, i got that covered!
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Awesome thank you for doing this! Itâs a shame the main âfeedback threadâ has been filled with so much bickering. I think Baddixâs post would be a great addition. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/en/wow/t/dragonflight-priest-talent-tree-feedback-thread/1272598/639
The honest to goodness problem to me is that you have a strong DoT path on the left, focusing on apparition potency. Then you have a strong proc path on the right, amplifying apparition frequency. In virtually all contexts, more procs with auspicious seems to outweigh 20% void empowering (unless they add a way to cleave VT, where bigger Mind Blasts in the left tree can shine versus more frequency in the right tree â i.e., Talbadarâs and the Death DoT consumer on the left path).
Oh, and idols seem too hard to control and either will be too much oomph for the spend or wonât justify the irregularity. Collapsing void needs to collapse on corpses.
Like it or not, classes donât exist in a vacuum in this game.
Itâs a valid point for someone to bring up that another spec has a talent tree that allows more âfreedomâ. And itâs just as valid to have a conversation about it.
The first 400 posts or so in this thread are just opinions and criticisms about priest specifically. And honestly as someone who works in game dev, I think conversations about what people feel like is good about one talent tree vs another is a much more interesting and actionable discussion than people talking about numbers that can be tuned.
If I were a WoW dev, from the first huge portion of this thread Iâd pull:
- Shadow priests are not happy, we screwed up their tree, or fundamentally misunderstood what players from that spec want.
- Disc priests are generally happy with their options, but thereâs some who want WoD back.
- Holy Priests are concerned about spec viability, as a few of their tools they needed to be viable in current content are gone.
- Shadow priests hate the class tree as well because they feel pigeonholed.
And from the discussion AFTER Shaman/evoker was brought up:
- General consensus looks like the problem with the class tree is bigger than initially thought.
- People like a wide variety of talents in their tree.
- What this seems to really mean is that they want to feel like they can reach into another specâs âsideâ of the tree more easily, so they need more branching paths, and less random talent off-shoots.
- Priest as a class is lacking much utility to spec into in their tree - which is exacerbating problem 2.
- Shadow as a spec doesnât have a whole lot it can take from Holy right now, and thatâs whatâs causing them to be hard stuck in the right side.
- Shadowâs tree is full of random survival-utility that might be able to be moved to the class tree. The spec tree likely needs heavy tuning anyway, so this might make room for that tuning.
None of that conversation is truly useless barring the lore conversation even when two schools of thought might be clashing.
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I donât like tithe evasion. You can get it without shadow word death, essentially making mind games cost 3 talent points (which I donât think is powerful enough to warrant that kind of tax). It really is an outlier, and I think this slot needs to be replaced with something that will be useful for all specs. Not that any devs will get this feedback anyway. The priest alpha testers arenât mentioning this at all when itâs very obvious as something that should be brought up.
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Yep, Tithe Evasion and Tools of the Cloth are literally worthless nodes.
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I will be making two replies. The first one is regarding talents.
The second one is more regarding reworking ideas.
This is more for the shadow sides of things.
Overall, i would rather have a Rework for the class / spec itself. But If i need to work with what we got, here are my thoughts on what could be doneâŚ
Talents: Thoughts and Concerns - PART 1 CLASS SPEC MAINLY*
First, Shadow Spec has too many abilities to unlock. Remove and reduce.
IMO Mind flay should either be the baseline spell for shadow spec or go to class spec talent. Read down below for details.
For the class tree, I would have loved to see instead POM, PWS, and Mind Blast as the first row since these are the CORE Iconic spells for all 3 specs that best represent them IMO.
Put SWD as a baseline as a replacement for swapping PWS.
For the Second row sameâŚ
Pretty much just Put PWS where SWD is currently located. Add Mind Blast above the right side of Shadow mend. Remove shadow word death extra talent and make 20 cd spell baseline. Replace talent with mind flay. Mind flay connects to 3rd-row talent, Mind restrain.
Would be a great opportunity to add a solo isolated talent 2 PWS to make it stronger / absorb a bit more than normal.
Default talents â So far it looks like only Disc gets TWO spells default. I would rather give all the specs opportunities to do that with their own combination.
- Holy gets POM and PWS
- Disc gets PWS and MB
- Shadow gets MB and Mind flay.
- Mind flay can be located under Mind blast
With my current changes, I think it would be cooler if we give Two spell choice options between Shadow flame prism and Idol of Ctâhon. Pretty much, let Shadow spec have a chance to get Void tentacles in class spec.
Shadow Fiend merges with Improve Shadow fiend talent. Itâs dumb that this was separated.
Now, instead, Shadow fiend connects to Mind Bender. Mind bender goes up to where Improve shadow fiend used to be.
Rabid Shadows connects to mind bender â moves to where Mind bender was originally at.
Would be interesting to add Psyfiend here followed by Idol of Ctâhon/Shadow flame prism hexagram node.
Donât forget, the holy spec tree also lacks variety of choice. What was it, only three talents not taken to get to the final tier? Part of me likes that, but itâs an outlier given their stated design goals.
Thinking on it briefly, I think what Iâd like for Holy is to have one side dealing with the Holy Words in a more involved fashion, and the otherâŚmaybe a callback to chakras? Not as they were, that implementation sucked, but something that plays off it could be fun.
Disc Iâve mentioned wanting some more wiggle room for less experienced players, but itâs hard to do that. On the bubble side, I will admit they could bring some of that back, but they cannot go full bubble. Bubbles are a problem when theyâre consistently large and easily applicable raid wide, as pretty much happened in Mists/WoD. So maybe you could bring DA back (probably as a deep/capstone talent), and/or add a talent that gives PW:R a shield like DA did for PoH, and I donât think thatâs unmanageable because of the cool down and target limits. Maybe a talent that steadily generates stacks that are consumed when you PW:S to increase the amount it absorbs. Basically, always rare, but either focused/strong or weak/wide.
ShadowâŚdespite me basically getting what I asked for it does need a proper overhaul. What it got in SL was fine, I do think it was important to step back from VF because of the variety of things wrong with it, but it needs something to evolve past basic builder/spender. Weâve funnily enough come to the opposite situation of what we had with VF, where VF was very flavorful and had mechanics that supported that flavor but sucked to play outside of specific situations, current Shadow is broadly usable, but has almost no flavor to it. I wouldnât be optimistic about a rework, but maybe they could add some more interactivity to certain spells and abilities. It looks like they want apparitions to be a big part of that, but thereâs not been a lot of interactivity between us and them before, theyâve almost always been a byproduct of other things weâre doing. Maybe give us a spell that summons a bunch of ghosts on demand or something, I dunno.
Regarding the class tree, that just needs another pass, full stop. But as general notes:
Iâm fine with PI and its legendaryâs location in the tree.
Mind Games is a good option for a capstone.
In general I think more utility could be dropped from some of our spec trees into the class tree.
VE could fly (with a little modification for healers).
Silence too, but I get concerns about giving every healer access to an interrupt.
Maybe Spirit of Redemption (slash Vengeance for Shadow?) if you wanna get goofy.
If Halo/Divine Star werenât tied into other talents in Disc, Iâd say they could fit in the class tree too.
I like the shape of it, regardless of the contents. Webby at the top feels important for flexibility, chains/diamonds at the bottom make the capstones feel more important, especially if the talents before feed into what it does.
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Oh I 100% agree with this. I think I was the first one to post about the priest tree after that first time they changed point numbers around and said that. Itâs REALLY weird tier 1 and 2 only have 23 points available. You need to spend 20/23 to get to the third tier. Itâs wacky.
But I havenât seen many others talk about it.
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Talents: Thoughts and Concerns - PART 2 CLASS SPEC MAINLY*
Continueing from my first PartâŚ
Make some core shadow abilities baseline and remove them from the tree itself: I want to see more passives in the spec tree rather than a bunch of core abilities slammed in there.
MAKE Shadowform, Dispersion, and Silence BASELINE.
- This leaves only the passives to unlock â last word and Intangibility.
The shadow apparition talents shouldnât be away from each other. Their current position feels out of place. The talent tree in general feels oddly designed in general. The cohesiveness as you go down feels awkward and very restricted.
I honestly would like void touch talent to be removed and replaced. Donât like it, donât think itâs a fun or engaging spell. Maybe something to make mind flay feel better to use?
Hallucination talent --same thing donât like. Seems like a forced filler passive talent to just have another option there.
Delete Surrender to madness. Why do we still have this?
When i play SP, it feels similar to Affliction warlocks where we are forced to fit this SPENDER CLASS mechanic. I honestly hate how EVERY DPS class needs a Spender resources mech now. Why canât mana be enough at times? Whatâs worse is that this mechanic is all for just ONE spellâŚ
- Addition: Devouring plague seems like itâs forced into this role. being the only real spender for this mechanic Just like warlock AFF Malefic rupture spell. Feels odd and out of place fantasy-wise when using the spell in this manner.
- I am a firm believer that we do not need every class to require another SPENDER mechanic to work.
************Reworks Ideas: just for Fun . *********
Shadow Spec.
As others have posted regarding Vampiric Embrace. I would love for it to become a Buff or passive instead of a big CD. Then making Sanâlyn Further improves the spell either passively or as a 2m cd buff.
I would love to see a talent that interacts with Mind flay and void torrent. Maybe a talent that transforms Mind flay into Void torrent itself instead of just gaining another spell. Call talent âimproved mind flay.â Mind flay is now touched by the void â transforming it into a void torrent.
I played AION before and they had a pretty neat design where you have chain spells. means you canât use a spell until you use its prerequisite. Some spells are a chance to cast â they tend to be very hard-hitting spells because of so.
Would be cool to have an interaction like that with Shadow Spec.
Like casting a mind blast has a chance to trigger another spell letâs call it âMind destruction.â The more Mind blast you cast, the higher chance to trigger the spell. Upon casting Mind destruction â leaves debuff. The debuff makes your next mind blast hit harder on the debuffed target.
not sure how mind spiked worked back then since I stopped playing wow after WOTLK ended. But it looked like a stacking spell.
Letâs try to apply the concept to it as an idea
in advance, all numbers, and cds adjustable. this is just for to get the idea across for now.
CastingâŚ
Mind spike â trigger â mind destruction.
Mind spike â mind spike â mind spike â trigger - mind destruction
Mind spike â mind spike â trigger Mind destruction
instant cast burst dmg. (pretty much nuke spell). 15-30 sec cd.
Mind destruction causes â Weaken Mind debuff.
Weaken mind â Targetâs mental state is weakened, making them more vulnerable to your next Mind blast.
Debuff mm 20-40 sec.
This can also be applied to mind flay as well. just replace Mind spike with mind flay.
But I guess this does require some reworks too :[.
Thereâs so many simple changes they could do. Example, with mind flay baseline they could add extra stuff like one talent makes mind flay usable while moving while another would summon an untargetable tendril that mind flays for x seconds after fully channeling a foe(essentially a reliable slow).
Iâm sure theyâll fix some stuff up before itâs released.
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Its why i like a version of shammies spiritwalkers grace
Mindflay on the move
Ramp/dps on the move
Divine hymn on the move while chaneling
exactly, there is more than enough time to fix everything. The question is, why are they not interacting and sharing their perspectives towards our feedback. As well as what they plan to do ongoing from this point.
Too much of lack of communication. Could lead to another SL where Priest ignored, specifically shadow spec.
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Yeah, itâs been three weeks now and not even an acknowledgement of âyes, we hear your concerns and are working to fix them.â Much less the additional communication we were promised.
Guys, there are classes who donât even have their trees out yet. And here we are with an over 600 comments thread + numerous other threads. I say we are lucky they released our tree so early to give so much feedback toward them.
Take your chill pill, itâs likely that they just arenât ready to adress our problems yet.
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Probably because our issues are different. 2 healing trees and 1 dps is somewhat unique. Like say you take out SFP, what do you put there to interest disc and holy as well as shadow. CR should prob be taken outâŚ/cough would love the wrath version of dispersion lol but that doesnt help shadow.
They will get to us at some point
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