The button bloat problem is more apparent on Holy.
We basically have to budget extra key slots for Mind Games, Divine Word, Empyreal Blaze, Apotheosis (or Holy Word Salvation), and Power Word: Life. Also, a lot of these abilities are on short activation cds so you’re using them 1-2 times a minute.
They just removed Mind Blast in the new build which was fine since Searing Light Smite literally did more damage than it.
The only reason I even bother taking Mind Games on Holy is because a lot of the general bottom node choices are mediocre. Mind Games also provides free healing.
Either way: The tldr is I had to fill in 2 more keys on my keybindings on the new expansion compared to live. It would be 3 if I bothered taking Holy Word Life.
Giving in to a bit of desperation in the past few days… i played around with the Talent Tree Manager to rearrange/design my own shadow priest talent tee:
Tier 1 no longer has utility, silence and dispersion are spec abilitities.
Idol of Yogg’Saron now is a choice against Asp. Spirits.
Tier 2 is pretty self-explanatory, the Psychic Horror node is as a shortcut if to Dark Evangelism, if you want neither PL/Insidious Ire (1 point cost)
Tier 3 is consists of four thematic sets centered around a certain ability. As they’re building up onto eachother, no interlinks, you get to choose two of them:
Set 1 is based around Shadowfiend/Mindbender
Set 2 is based around Shadow: Word Death, with Insanity now triggered by SW:D casts, and getting an AoE component
Set 3 consists of Mind Devourer, Monomania (now DP and Mind Sear increase the tickrate of your DoTs), and Idol of N’zoth which benefits from the increased DoT tick rate)
Set 4 is Damnation/Void Torrent, the CDR, and Idol of C’thun, which now is spawned whenever you cast Damnation and Void Torrent.
I agree here. The idols are pretty lame. They need to be redesigned.
I like the nzoth 1 the most. It’s different in its design and looks visually awesome. Using attack power for scaling is very odd though.
Mind devourer- like bruh, cmon a SL conduit as a capstone? If DP stays gutted and does noodle damage like it did in SL, this is gonna feel even worse.
Cthun- like I mentioned previously completely useless for pvp. Rarely cast mindflay or mind sear in pvp. Duration way too long
Yogg- another pet gimmick. This is just lazy design.
Suggested alternatives from npc abilities, so no need to create new art or anything. Easy implementation.
Dark Withering: “Withers the target, inflicting 524 Shadow damage and increasing damage taken by 10% for 5 sec.”
-Probably increase the duration. This can bring group utility to shadow.
Corrupting Void: “Corrupts nearby enemies with void energy, inflicting 3 Shadow damage every 1 sec for 8 sec. Additionally, all enemies are pulled towards the afflicted target. Upon expiration, the target explodes, inflicting 10 Shadow damage to all nearby enemies.“ useful for spriest in pvp to create distance from melee, by putting this on ranged enemy healer for example.
There’s a lot of abilities in Seat of the Triumvirate, that blizz should look at implementing and tweaking so they’re effective in pve & pvp
Looks a lot better than what we have, however I like the design of a few talents in between the columns on the final tier to open up a few different options. This could be a place for mastermind and insidious ire.
I thought about that, but i was going for complete sets.
Take for example destruction warlocks, they have a nether portal 3 talent set, a demonic tyrant 3 pointer talent set, and a felguard talent set in their final tier. Any other talent in there does not create connections between these talents, but are fillers that could be placed anywhere in the tree.
Similar for Affliction with Haunt, Soul Rot and Darkglare.
I would rearrange it to be 4 sets of three talents leading to a capstone with a single talents option in between the left sets and the right sets and a 2 talent option between the middle sets.
Sets from left to right would be:
Shadowfiend, SWD, mindflay, dp.
Intermediary talents would include mastermind and insidious ire. Damn/torrent would be the middle option.
Each of the 4 talent sets would culminate with an idol that interacts with the spell that is being empowered by that set for symmetry.
Edit:
Mindbender → fiending dark → idol of ysharaaj
Shadowflame prism
Deathspeaker → pain of death → idol of nzoth
Damn/torrent → Malediction
MFI → monomania → idol of c’thun
Mastermind/insidious ire
Mind devourer → derangement → idol of yogg saron
A few talents would need to be reworked for this schema.
Idol of nzoth would now only begin to collapse at 10 stacks and SWD would force detonation if all stacks immediately.
Derangement would empower consecutive dps in quick succession.
Idol of yogg saron would summon living shadow after 3 consecutive dps requiring mind devourer + full insanity to summon.
Idol of c’thun would be a guaranteed proc on an icd.
You only have a max of 10 points to spend. Meaning you are forced to pick all but 2 things. Maybe I don’t want Mind Spike, Mind Sear and Unfurling darkness. But I have to pick at least one of them.
Any utility we still have in the tree should be in the top section. That way you don’t feel bad for ignoring more choices later on that enhances damage. Much easier to pick from 8 points vs 20.
Still cant see a world where any ability is a competitive choice with Misery. So Misery should be its own talent without a choice.
Middle Section
Too many 2 point nodes.
You need to pick up 2 two point nodes to get the middle pillars in bottom row. That is bad.
Bottom Section
Malediction is just a lazy talent. It shouldn’t exist.
Mind Flay: Insanity should be better positioned to feed into the C’Thun / Monomania leg.
Those are some general thoughts. I didn’t want to go down the road of questioning why some things are missing like Mastermind (Which is a great talent imo) so I will just leave it at that.
I tried to just focus on pathing and talent requirement/location for this feedback post. Otherwise I would have a lot more to say and it would just morph into what I would prefer to see which I think everyone have already seen that already so I will just leave it at that.
Its not updated with the current Trees. But its not that difficult to modify your own from the current selection of talent tree presets.
i honestly liked the last two week position iterations vs this weeks. I feel like the new positions just suck as it ry to make builds. I literally could only make one decent one this time. Everythign else was walled off with irrelevant things.
our caps suck. I just pretend they don’t exist.
Why is Cthun procs so low. I love this idol, but its appearance is none existent.
DP Agency ignored. If they at least b ring its strength through Shadoworbs, we can see a rot build happening and a reason to focus on mindflay build.
Void torrent is thrown to tote right side where all mind blast / mind spike stuff are located, so it feels out of place. Its also has one of the biggest walls ever.
too many walls. too mannnnny. omggggg, mercy.
I still don’t l ike whispers of the damned, i think its needs to be Deleted. Like i prefer piercing shadows over this 10000 folds.
Derangement DP side of things sucks.
Deathspeaker is beautiful, please do not ruin this for the love of all thats SHADOW.
I honestly feel more restrictive going down this tree vs last two week’s build. Too many things i don’t care about and don’t need being forced on me to pick going down.
Shadowpriest Defense gonna die if you remove the three things you want to remove. Shadowmend + passive nodes, Mind games, PWL.
Like plz at least replace them with something valuable…
Would love a choice node between Angelic Feather and Door of Shadows
Would love talents that build in the Sepulcher tier set 2-and 4-set bonuses - this is more fun than any of our current Idol talents (imo).
I hope you keep Mindgames around. It’s good damage, has some solo/survival PvE value, and isn’t rotational so it’s not too bad for the button bloat issue.
Dominate Mind - I really like this spell - it is such a unique CC and will be GREAT for dangerous M+ groups where the cc’d mob will stay cc’d just long enough to widdle down the group before it breaks free, plus it can do some nice damage. I think this will bring up interesting and fun choices in M+ about which mob brings the most value to mind control. So…I hope you keep this talent around!
Idols - way undertuned, bugged, and lacking in fun interactions. I’m sure you can tune them at some point and fix bugs…but how do they change our play? Seems like they don’t! Just select the talent and forget about them. To be honest, the Idols seem like superficial flavor without any actual purpose - are they not supposed to be powerful capstones that we should want to take and that change how we play to some degree?
Shadow Crash - my personal preference - your mileage may vary- I would prefer it as a mob-targeted ability instead of ground reticule targeting. Frustrating how many times camera angle suddenly changes and my shadow crash winds up on the ceiling.
Utility at the top of Shadow tree - it’s hard to justify taking the majority of the utility because you lose throughput. In the current tree I think the Last Word/Psychic Horror choice node is dead for PvE spriests. Probably same for the Intangibility/Mental Fortitude choice node.
Vampiric Embrace - I WANT to like this - because it would be nice to have utility that groups want to bring me for M+ but there’s a few issues. Can this spell be OFF the GCD? And could it be switched to a group-wide leech buff or something that doesn’t rely on me personally having to do single target damage?
Halo - is too dangerous to take in m+ and is just going to give shadowpriests a bad reputation and we’ll have group leaders in group finder passing on us because of bad experiences with spriests who used it and pulled extra. I’m good with removing both this and Divine Star as unneeded button bloat, but maybe other spriests or other specs think they will be useful?
Shadow Mend + the Masochism/Depth of the Shadows choice node - this is GOOD and gives us a good choice between damage mitigation or extra powerful heal - plus flash heal is weak. I hope you will keep Shadow Mend plus the choice node below it.
Mind Spike -
- if this is an option in some builds, which from my PTR testing appears to be very much the case, to be a replacement filler for Mind Flay - just know that it becomes extremely spammy in cleave situations. Don’t get me wrong, I love how shadowpriest can become hectic but the kind of spammy I prefer is weaving lots of different buttons, not spamming the same button (Mind Spike) so much. Sooo, I hope you can look at this, and/or just make sure Mind Flay builds remain competitive so we aren’t forced into 'Spike Spam.
Mind Sear - I don’t understand what niche this is filling? It’s tuned pretty low and I know you can fix that pretty easy, but it lacks interactions that our other spender, Devouring Plague has. In what damage profile situations are we going to prefer Mind Sear? Are you planning to tune it so we want to Sear on Mass Aoe? Or maybe for burst AoE? For the amount of Insanity it drains, I have to think you plan to tune it for big burst or mass stacked AoE, but it’s unclear currently and seems like a dead talent on the PTR right now.
Here is my attempt to reorganize the Shadow Spec Tree.
A few changes I assumed when making this layout are:
Idol of Cthun is now triggered by Shadow Word: Death.
Mind Sear now has a 100% chance to stack Echoing Void.
Derangement now applies a 5 sec buff to the player which stacks up to 3 times whenever Devouring Plague is cast. The Buff increases the initial damage of the next Devouring Plague by 200%. Stacking does not refresh duration.
Idol of Yogg Saron now summons Living Shadow instead of that derpy Thing from Beyond. The Living Shadow is summoned when you reach 3 stacks of Derangement. The Living Shadow lasts for 5 seconds and duplicates your Mind Spike and Mind Blast casts at a reduced effectiveness (thanks Aneurysm).
Ideally, Silence and Dispersion move to the class tree as contextual talents. If that doesn’t happen, they should be made baseline for shadow. In that case, Intangibility and Psychic Horror could be adjusted to the positions adjacent to shadowy apparitions.
Some notable changes I made are:
Unfurling Darkness and Dark Void are now a choice node.
Mind Sear and Mindflay: Insanity are now a choice node.
I still think whisper of the damed needs to be deleted/reworked tho.
Derangement Needs to be etheir for DP only or Mind sear only.
shadow orbs proc mindblast and DP, remove mind spike.
cthun is fine being triggered by ether or. It just needs to Proc Way more ofthen and with more tentacles for the fantasy theme.
The puppet master should be underneath harnessed shadows.
Derangement 1 point. let’s stop the BS 2 point. These talents are not worth that hefty cost.
Same for maddening touch - 1 point.
PvE PTR Shadow Priest feedback, 9/17/22: Shadow Priest tree Builds (And why I think there are only two basic builds and they are based on which “filler” you choose: Mind Flay: Insanity or Mind Spike):
After testing for days with different builds on target dummies and out on elites in zereth mortis and examining my Details breakdown, here are my thoughts on the two types of builds available.
If you choose Mind Spike, then the majority of your synergies are based on buffing non-periodic damage: you will take Psychic Link, Whispers of the Damned, Mastermind, and Insidious Ire. You will take Mind Flay off of your bar and replace with Mind Spike. Your major cooldown will be Dark Ascension. Most of your overall damage will be Mind Blast. Your playstyle will be somewhat spammy with 'Spike spam, especially on any cleave/AoE (you will have constant Surge of Darkness procs). Your build will look something like this:
If you choose Mind Flay: Insanity, then most of your talent choices are based on synergies here: your main cd is Void Eruption, and of course you want Monomania and you will take Mental Decay but otherwise avoid the right half of the shadow tree. Most of your overall damage will be your dots. Your playstyle will be somewhat more mellow except during Voidform where things will be hectic and fun (the way I like it). The build looks something like:
Maybe I’ve got this wrong, but my conclusion is that although there are a few choices available, for the most part your shadow build will depend on your preference between the two fillers: spamming Mind Spike, or the somewhat mellower Mind Flay:Insanity. The rest of your choices flow from the need to synergize. My conclusions were based on hours of testing and seeing what builds perform like as well as what the damage breakdown looked like for each build. Of course, all of this is dependent on tuning and further changes.
I actually don’t mind this set up. I somewhat like the different filler-build’s playstyle although my finger gets tired when spamming 'Spike when cleaving. Overall I prefer the flay-filler build because it can be mellow but then during Void Form I get the old feeling of hectic-ness that I get on live when I pop my cd’s. I just really miss Hungering Void.
The recent changes made to Mind Spike and Mind Melt have improved the Insanity generation of Whispers of the Damned. You can get an idea of its effectiveness by looking at a basic Mind Spike and Mind Blast spam rotation for a character with base stats.
Assume the following talents are taken:
Shadowy Insight - Chance to reset the cooldown of Mind Blast and causes the next Mind Blast to be an instant cast
Mind Spike - A 1.5 second cast direct damage ability that generates 6 Insanity
Surge of Darkness - Chance to make Mind Spike an instant cast and deal 50% more damage
Mind Melt - Mind Spike reduces the cast time of Mind Blast by 50% and increases the critical strike chance of the next Mind Blast by 50% (stacks 2 times)
Whispers of the Damned - Mind Blast and Mind Spike critical strikes generate 5 Insanity
Mastermind - Increase the critical strike chance of Mind Blast and Mind Spike by 6% and increases their critical strike damage bonus by 30%
For a character with base stats (0% haste and 5% critical strike chance), the basic Mind Spike and Mind Blast rotation consists of spamming Mind Spike and then using Mind Blast when it comes off cooldown. If Shadowy Insight is never triggered, the player ends up casting Mind Spike 5 times and then using Mind Blast. If Shadowy Insight is triggered, the number of Mind Spikes casted between Mind Blast uses becomes less than 5. Surge of Darkness does not affect the number of Mind Spikes casted between uses of Mind Blast. Mastermind increases the critical strike chance of Mind Blast and Mind Spike to 11%.
The following cases could occur and the approximate expected Insanity generated per second by Whispers of the Damned is listed. The approximate expected Insanity generated per second by Whispers of the Damned without Mastermind is in parenthesis.
Mind Spike x5 + Mind Blast: 0.86 (0.69)
Mind Spike x4 + Mind Blast: 0.96 (0.80)
Mind Spike x3 + Mind Blast: 1.11 (0.96)
Mind Spike x2 + Mind Blast: 1.36 (1.22)
Mind Spike x1 + Mind Blast: 1.20 (1.00)
Mind Spike x0 + Mind Blast: 0.36 (0.17)
These numbers would increase with higher haste and critical strike chances. For example, for fun, a 100% haste and 100% critical strike chance results in Whispers of the Damned generating approximately 6.66 Insanity per second. However, these numbers would decrease when you consider casting abilities other than Mind Spike and Mind Blast in the rotation.
For some comparison, considering base stats, Maddening Touch approximately generates 0.33 Insanity per second on single targets. In combination with Monomania, Maddening Touch approximately generates 0.52 Insanity per second on single targets. Maddening Touch really gets an edge in multiple target situations.
With all this said, I don’t think Whispers of the Damned is completely horrible. It seems to be an okay passive Insanity generation mechanic for some situations. I don’t think its 2 talent point cost is justified, though. To make things worse, the first talent point grants 3 extra Insanity while the second talent point only grants 2 extra Insanity. I also do not like that it acts as a gate to 3 unrelated talents: Damnation, Void Torrent, and Malediction.
I mentioned our Sepulcher tier 2 and 4 set bonuses in a previous post, but I’ll reiterate here @Heartshade (awesome name btw), I would love to see the tier set bonuses get built into the DF talent tree.
