Best loot system: EPGP

I’ve been researching some of the popular guild loot systems, and in my opinion, EPGP seems to be the most fair, thoughtful, and easiest to maintain. I’m hoping I can convince guilds to use it over DKP, Loot Council, and Suicide Kings, because these systems all have glaring flaws that I think will introduce completely unnecessary stress factors and fairness issues if used:

  • DKP can have issues with point hording that make it extremely difficult for new members to get gear, and gear can be priced unfairly if a bidding system is used.
  • Zero-Sum DKP can be extremely unfair when comparing point accumulation potential for progression nights vs. farming nights, and seems difficult to maintain when members leave, and wasteful when no one bids on gear.
  • Loot council is highly susceptible to corruption and favoritism (although there’s no doubt it’s the only option for guilds going for server first).
  • Suicide Kings penalizes heavily for taking sub-optimal or offset pieces from a high position, which can lead to poor gear distribution.

Most of the negative comments I’ve heard about EPGP seem to be the result of guilds running bizarre, nonsensical configurations. When configured correctly, I feel EPGP all but completely eliminates the issues mentioned in the other systems.

EPGP Rundown

Players are given EP (effort points) for time spent raiding (guilds can also give EP for showing up on time, donating supplies, boss kills, etc.). Players are given GP (gear points) for taking gear. PR (priority) is EP divided by GP. The player with the highest PR has first dibs on taking gear. When you take gear and incur GP, your PR falls. When you earn EP, your PR rises. The addon manages everything, and the end result is list for the master looter, prioritized by who’s most deserving of gear based on their contributions weighed against how much gear they’ve already taken.

Misconceptions

  • Gear is not purchased with EP. EP and GP are never deducted (except for the weekly decay). They’re simply used to determine your PR (i.e., your place in line for gear), and otherwise operate completely independently of each other.
  • EP and GP are arbitrary values. It doesn’t matter whether your guild awards players 100 EP per raid, or 1,000,000, or if a piece of gear costs 1 GP or 5,000. They’re just used to determine the PR ratio, so all that matters is consistency (e.g., decide what you want your EP values to be before your first raid, and stick with them - forever). However, using higher numbers may be a better option because smaller numbers will lose accuracy when rounded since I believe the addons convert to integers.

Advantages of EPGP

  • Prevents hording. EP and GP are decayed by 10% (customizable) each week. This is EPGP’s best feature, IMO. The longer you go without taking gear, the harder you’ll be penalized by the decay. This helps to promote fair and even gear distribution.
  • Natural balancing. The weekly decay ensures that no one gets too far ahead or behind. It gives veterans an advantage, while also allowing new members to catch up over time.
  • Fair pricing. Gear pricing is fixed. This prevents bidding wars and overpaying for items, which can put people in a hole.
  • Encourages taking minor upgrades. To prevent players from only taking BiS gear, different GP options can be set. For example, a guild could configure “Need (100%),” and “Greed (25%)” options. Choosing Need would give you top priority for the gear, and you’d pay full GP if you won. This would be used for tier pieces, BiS gear, and major upgrades. Greed rolls would only be considered if no one chose Need, and if you won, you’d only pay 25% of the item’s GP value. This would be used for minor upgrades and offset pieces. The discounted GP option lets players take sub-optimal pieces without taking a huge PR decrease, which again helps to promote fair and even gear distribution.
  • Protection for veterans. A minimum EP for taking gear can be set. Say an average 3hr raid awards 5,000 EP. The minimum EP could be set to 5,000 so that a new member would have to run at least one full raid with the guild to qualify for gear.

Anyway, if you’re reading this and planning to be a Classic GM, I hope you’ll consider EPGP. Gearing can be stressful, but I think EPGP can at least help to make it a fair and unbiased process.

10 Likes

I’ve used DKP, EPGP, Loot Council and even /roll.

EPGP has to be done right but it is decent. The main problems I’ve seen with it come from inconsistent application (intentionally gearing up specific players) and attendance that is all over the place.

2 Likes

I ran EPGP on a private server in a guild, so much gear that was a legit upgrade for people would rot because that meant they had to pass on a bigger item later. Great if you want to control what loot you are getting to a T, horrible if you want your raid to maximize the loot you get.

2 Likes

A loot system where you have to set a price for every… single… drop… seems labor intensive.

All systems have cons.

DKP

  • People tend to hoard (I’ve been that person) if there’s a single item they desperately want.
  • The cost of an item can skew greatly based on who shows up that week.

Zero Sum DKP

  • People have little to no incentive to show up when content is at near end-of-life.
  • People have little to no incentive to show up if you’re stuck on a boss.

Loot Council

  • Graft, corruption, and favoritism.
  • The constant specter of the appearance of the above, even if there isn’t any.

EPGP

  • Items need to be individually assigned values (tons of work) or a disproportionate number of things will rot.
  • People will hoard just as hard, if not harder than in a DKP system, since there is no way they will get the item if someone else has a higher ratio.
2 Likes

It sounds like EPGP was being skirted then? I mean, yeah, that’s a big problem if your guild implemented a system but only used it selectively.

This is a problem when guilds don’t offer an option to purchase gear for discounted GP (like the 100%/25% example I mentioned). The discounted option can be raised or lowered until an appropriate balance is reached (e.g., if a 25% option is available and people still aren’t taking non-BiS pieces, lower it to 15%). Did your guild have an option like this, and did they adjust the discount number?

2 Likes

Honestly, why does it matter what guilds you are not a member of do? The only guild(s) that should matter to you are the guilds you either run or join.

4 Likes

It’s decent. The best loot system in a perfect world though it loot council. Every high end guild I was ever in did loot council and they all succeeded in doing it because they did it fairly and did it for the raids benefit and not to give stuff over to their buds, christ if anything the ones I was in their friends got loot last.

With that said loot council can also be the worst with terrible leaders who funnel gear to their egirl firends and buds.

1 Like

The addons that I’m familiar with have default prices. I can’t post links, but if you search for EPGPWeb, I believe that one already takes care of values.

Then they’ll be hit hard by the weekly decay. Hording in EPGP can let you stay on top to get, like, 1 piece, whereas DKP hording can allow someone to shut out everyone else for potentially multiple pieces.

They did, but it still came down to

“Do I take this item which will then lower me to the point where I’m not getting the next Drake Fang Talisman that drops . . . nope pass”

Just trying to get information out there in hopes of having more options when selecting a guild. “DKP” is used as a buzzword and many people may think it’s the defacto loot system. Many guilds may use it without considering, or even being aware of EPGP. I think it will be helpful to have more people advocating for EPGP.

Never had issues with loot council in any guild I joined.

Then again, I did my research before applying to a guild.

3 Likes

Many? You have facts to back this up, or just your own idle speculation? Loots systems are not new. Nor limited to this game. You didn’t just discover this.

Only because that’s the system YOU like. People can equally advocate for their own.

Okay, your original post sounds more like you want all guilds to only offer EPGP, which would offer less options. I personally find each loot distribution method has pros and cons, and what’s more important to a guild leader and raid leader is finding the one that feels most fair to the members while supporting ongoing progression through raids. (Most fair … because loot is never entirely fair, and sometimes it’s more important to pick members who get that over trying to find a loot method one particular member likes better.)

I think it’s almost impossible to eliminate bias decisions. And people may over-correct: “their friends got loot last.” Not necessarily wrong to do this since there’s good intention, but it’s not necessarily fair either.

I agree that in a perfect world, loot council is best. But our world is far from perfect. IMO, only guilds in the server first race should use loot council. They’re stupid if they don’t.

EPGP is just as easily exploited as any other loot system

3 Likes

Please provide an example.

What are EPGP’s cons?

Diggitydave said exactly how the system is exploited but you chose to ignore that. Please provide proof that is system cant be exploited…

Its a point system, people will pass on upgrades so they dont lose on larger upgrades. Your opinion isnt a fact. There is no perfect loot system. You can discount gear all you want but people are going to pass on minor upgrades so they can be in line for things like DFT and CTS. I’ve seen it happen many times.

A very specific example that comes to mind is a rogue go viskag, passed on every single piece of gear until a CTS dropped, then took the CTS and screwed over everyone who would have used it as a game changing upgrade.

Favoritism.

You don[t automatically get points. You get them when an officers decides. EP can be awarded for whatever the officers decide.

There’s also an inflation problem as more and more people get and bank points. Which doesn’t benefit new members.

You put this out there are the answer to everything, it’s not.

EPGP is also very good if you join a guild that uses it and you have gear from a previous guild. You very quickly spike to the top of the prio list since you don’t need much gear and can take the big ticket items everyone wants earlier then you would likely be able too in a dkp/loot council situation.

Passing on loot inflates EP, which is mitigated by weekly decay. It’s more advantageous for people to take upgrades. Once they’re geared and are only interested in 1 or 2 items, then they can save up for those. I would hardly call that an “exploit.” If undergeared people are passing on upgrades hoping for 1 amazing item, then they’re being stupid and will be penalized by the decay.