Your interpretation was a surrender, his intent is clearly a truce since that is within his character. He doesn’t have that history.
That was at the END of the conflict, and this one is going to end the same way with it being Horde + alliance vs Sylvanas/N’zoth. We can’t declare it a non-war because of how it ended. It is still a war.
Didn’t happen in MoP when Garrosh dropped a mana bomb on Theramore. It is very unlikely to occur now given they have no means to enforce it, and if they did, you’d just get another war.
Besides, Anduin is as honorable as Varian, who did not demand reparations only that the Horde stick to their side.
Look, by lore, the alliance should have won from the beginning. They have Jaina friggin proudmoore. She alone pretty much can solo the entirety of Ogrimmar. The war should have been dead the moment she appeared with a ship shooting magical cannons.
Because of game mechanics, the Alliance will be stupid.
If there was not a game mechanic issue, the Alliance would not be stupid, and would not merely accept a Truce.
I am saying a truce is not possible unless the Alliance is stupid. If you are winning every phase of the war, and your opponent wants to enter into negotiations with you…and they have no leverage…then they are all but surrendering.
Look, if we are going to be logical, the Alliance should have won the moment Jaina opened fire using a magical ship with cannons on it. The moment they destroyed Zandalar’s navy they should ahve pressed the attack and captured the Horde forces and demanded a surrender.
Let’s not try to use logic for the storyline. It clashes too hard with gameplay.
I would not mind if the Horde, however, does get forced onto the backfoot and come surging forth in a mighty way afterward by throwing Jaina out a window.
So I guess I will assume Baine has achieved sentience, and knows he is inside of a video game, and that therefor…Anduin will be stupid and accept a Truce because due to game play mechanics the Horde won’t be forced to surrender.
Because else, we have to assume that any logical train of thought would persist. Even if the story is illogical for game mechanic reasons.
I mean Sylvanas is responsible for more War Crimes than Hitler sooo…
Nathanos I’m not so sure about, guys seems more driven by Loyalty than anything else which I can respect. Sylvanas I can also respect to an extent since she’s actually not wrong that the Alliance would never accept the Horde as an equal in peace. As far as the Alliance are concerned all must serve their ideals and their ideals alone.
The Horde has always allowed more freedom for it’s members, this is both an appealing thing and a bad thing. Since it allowed the Forsaken Apothecaries to work without much interference until Garrosh at which point it was already too late and Garrosh wasn’t the leader who could make that kind of overhaul work anyway.
Even before they made him a villain.
But I digress, Sylvanas is right that the Horde and Alliance won’t ever get along, she’s not right in the way she went about handling it. Not communicating with Baine openly for instance was a mistake. If you prepare people before hand they can learn to accept extreme methods. Also going after a Neutral Party like Malfurion was also a mistake, every time the Horde has done this it’s just given them another enemy to fight. This case was no different.
Attacking a Druidic people on their home turf was also beyond stupid, that’s just asking for home terrain advantage times a hundred.
We are saying the same thing using different words. The Alliance’s choice can’t be because they are making a stupid choice because they cant make the choice. The game mechanics demand it.
If you go by some cut scenes, the humans have suffered massive losses that might push them to accept a truce - if you want to look at that.
Tyrande and Genn, though? Never. I don’t care what Blizz says, Tyrande never got her revenge.
And I get that. I am taking game mechanics out of it. Because unless Baine is aware of game mechanics, its not part of his intent.
If right after a battle you lost…when you are losing the entire war on every front. You suggest entering negotiations with the enemy holding all the cards…
There is only 1 possible outcome. You are surrendering.
Yes, game mechanics will ultimately swoop in and save the day. But that isn’t part of Baine’s thought process.
Or he is being rational like any other nation in such a situation.
Except for the British. Church hill was one crazy dude.He wasn’t facing jaina friggin proudmoore though.
If Thalysrra wasn’t…well…average mage apparently, then I’d agree with you Baine’s notions are bleh.
Plus the last time the Horde surrendered the Orcs all became indentured servants. Kinda reveals the fact that the Alliance for all it’s chivalry is still a primitive civilization by out of game standards.
I don’t trust them to understand morality or ethics anymore than their Horde Counterparts. Until they go through the same intellectual evolutions as IRL societies they are still just a bunch of feudalists.
No but it IS a part of the writers thoughts. You know the ones that wrote Baine’s actions? You can’t take the mechanics out of it because the writers are bound by it.
If Baine were a living breathing being with his own independent thoughts, you would be correct. Since he isn’t you have to realize everything he does is written to be done in a certain way by someone who does know the mechanics and is trying to fit an overall story together that may or may not fit how he actually believes.
Then answer, what will the Alliance “trade” the Horde for Ashenvale and Darkshore? Nothing that is equal their value. So again, the Horde have coveted Ashenvale since the beginning of WoW and Saurfang would not give it up but Baine would.
Stromgarde wouldn’t listen to Anduin if Anduin told them not to rebuild their home. Stromgarde IS a fortress. It IS a military and one of the strongest militaries the Alliance ever had (not so much right now because they got wrekt, but their military culture will easily see their strength increase once given a proper home).
Anduin is not going to leave Lordaeron just sitting there for anyone to take. If the Forsaken go home, then the humans of Lordaeron will also want their home back and it will be rebuilt for the Alliance.
Your previous comment doesn’t defend the fact that Baine lost the Southern Barrens. At the time, Garrosh was conquering, Sylvanas was conquering but Baine was losing and did nothing since then to take back the Southern Barrens and even went so far as to prohibit other Taurens from doing so.
It seems the writers thought process for Baine is to only have him involved in the story to sympathize with the Alliance. He’s never a major quest giver, never leads any raids, never is a focal point of any new patch zones even though just about every other major lore character is… the only time he ever gets involved is when the Alliance requires someone from the Horde to help. Seems like we know what the writer’s thought processes are for him.
Saurfang is a spineless weakling, a coward and a traitor. He will not resist anything the Alliance does, and he most certainly will not wage a cold war against his handler Anduin. Especially after that therapy moment in the Stockades.
Baine’s a HUGE pushover. He’s even worse than Anduin. His whole race almost got killed by a splintered faction of tauren and after he fought them back all he did was tell them “I don’t ever wanna see you again! Or else!” oh, they ALSO killed his father. He’s a wuss.
Saurfang was honestly awesome until this expansion. They wrote him as some suicidal traitorous idiot who uses “honor” whenever it fits him being a “good” guy. I mean, I know Blizzard’s writing has always been trash tier when it comes to details, but they completely butchered this character for me.
Baine started off as a bad leader. After Magatha killed his father and chieftain, she tried to take over the tauren’s seat of power by sacking Bloodhoof Village and Thunderbluff. Many tauren were killed.
Let’s recap that. Magatha killed the tauren chieftain and many braves trying to take over Mulgore.
So, what does Baine do? Let’s her go with a slap on the wrist. This is why I will (probably) always dislike Baine and dislike the person in charge of his story. He’s not a “great leader.” He’s not smart. He’s not brave. He is a coward.
Baine: There’s peace. Commerce increases. The Horde survives and thrives.
Saurfang: Cold war until the Horde misteps again. In a few years, Horde is crushed because the Alliance won’t tolerate it anymore.
Sylvanas: The Horde is crushed right now.
He seems to be the only Horde leader with enough strength to oppose Sylvanas this x-pac. Everyone else just bends the knee to the Lich Queen and gushes over her like Nathanos.
You guys should maybe get a navy together first instead of arguing over your leaders because it probably won’t matter who the new leader is when there’s 100 Kul Tiran ships nuking orgrimmar from Bladefist Bay.
Another round of a thread devolving into Baine hate and hyperbole. The issue with Baine ISN’T that he is some Alliance shill (the guy has done TWO things for JAINA, and never for Anduin or the greater Alliance). Hell, his courtesy letter to Jaina during the Theramore incident did nothing really tangible (it was ALWAYS Garrosh’s plan to stall out and let the Alliance reinforce so he could do as much dmg as possible with the Mana Bomb). Baine did nothing to actually STOP the attack. I feel like people just forget that Cairne died in an attempt to preserve a chance at lasting peace?
The issue with Baine is that he’s dull as tar, and Blizz seems to rely more on him to be a “Token Good Horde Plot Device” to serve as a counterbalance, whenever they want another Horde to go off the deepend. His needs as an independent character always seems to be rather irrelevant to that “Plot Device” role. Which sort of sucks considering his conceptual character structure isn’t bad. As for who I’d prefer as Warchief? Thrall. He’s the least contentious choice, and based off his current appearance and actions at least it looks like Green Jesus died at some point after Legion.