Why? Because she did so to make sure the rest of our soldiers survive, considering that the Alliance would have overrun us and slaughtered us all if she had not done it. Basic strategy, sacrifice a few so the majority survives.
Vol’jin never claims to be some virtue-signaling idiot like Baine, unlike Baine, we saw him fight the Alliance before, we saw him in the fray ready to take Alliance skulls. Which is why I did not mind him as Warchief.
Baine has called a hunter training village, where the majority of the dead are civilians a ‘viable military target’, and banished any Tauren who called him out on that.
Nuff said.
Does this help you understand why Baine giving the Alliance another boost is starting to border on insulting? He should wipe that Horde insignia off of his shoulder and replace it with the Alliance symbol already.
Ah yes, the best one at mental gymnastics has made his appearance.
You can’t use that excuse when it isn’t true. She could of easily called a retreat then shot out the blight. Also, the entire Horde is against raising the dead. Remember Lich King? He was a pretty big deal. But everyone has to act retarded so Miss Edgy can pull off her plans.
Vol’jin literally said the same crap as both Baine and Saurfang are now. The Horde is family, we are different now, no senseless violence blah blah blah. Vol’jin has fought the Alliance even less than Baine has. In case you forgot, Vol’jin did literally nothing until MoP. He retook his island in Cata and that was it. Vol’jin also asked the Alliance for help in SoO. Not even Baine has directly asked the Alliance for help against Sylvanas.
Taurajo was done by a loose squadron of former Alliance criminals. The Alliance command didn’t even like the attack on Taurajo. Taurajo was avenged anyways, in case you don’t know you have a quest to go kill all the Alliance looters there. Inciting a bigger war over 1 town would be unwise. The Alliance forces in Southern Barrens were dealt with in the quests too, btw. Baine even had a big wall built between the Barrens and Mulgore. I guess he should of torn it down so his Blue Buddies could flood in.
Sylvanas murdered a bunch of Forsaken because she made the mistake of allowing them to think they have free will and that they can choose their families over her.
Anything you can whine about Baine, I can name 2 things Sylvanas has done that actually hurt the Horde.
I am not arguing that you are wrong. From a pragmatic cold logic strategic mindedness, you are correct. It sows chaos and puts a wall of undead berserkers between the Alliance and your front gate. Had Jaina not shown up, it effectively had halted, if not ended, the Battle for Undercity.
However, it can be very easily stated that blighting and raising these Horde heroes against their will goes against the original honor code of the Horde, and was yet another example of Sylvanas going too far.
Yes it worked. However, basic morality would suggest that just because something works, doesnt make it right.
For Example: If you wanted to be promoted at work, but the position is not available because someone is in that seat, you could just have that person assassinated so you can naturally move up. Did it work? Yes. Was it right? Seven Hells, no.
This is where the Horde Players and obviously MANY of the Horde Leaders are at right now and I have no idea why this seems to mystify some people. Not everyone casts aside morality and honor so easily, and honor can be a very different concept to different people. To Baine, Sylvanas has repeatedly gone too far and made too many amoral decisions. To a Pragmatist or someone who’s honor is based more in loyalty than morality, Baine is a traitor and Sylvanas is doing what she has to do to win.
You are free to look at this any way you want. Support Sylvanas if you want, I do not fault you. But do not disparage the values of those who believe in a moral honor code for the Horde and do not support the methods Sylvanas has employed. To them, the Horde stands for something, and Sylvanas’ actions thus far have led them away from that something.
Says the one committing actual mental gymnastics to justify your outrage over Sylvanas, here let me correct you on several things:
First, I don’t care what he said, what he did is what matters. Vol’jin only went to the Alliance when Garrosh literally tried to have him murdered for speaking out against Garrosh, something Sylvanas has never done.
Also, she did call for a retreat, which is why most of our soldiers did not die, the ones who died where those wounded or too far behind enemy lines. Not only that, she remained behind so that the useless traitor Tauren could escape along with the heroes from the Alliance onslaught and did so again in the throne room where she told Baine to stop complaining and take care of the survivors while she remained behind to stall the Alliance again. Putting her own neck on the line three times that entire fight, but you people tend to ignore that.
The ones who made the Alliance pay for Taurajo was not Baine, he hid behind his wall like a cheap knock-off Gilnean, while the outcasts at Vendetta Point gave you the missions to make those Alliance scumbags pay. So try again, seeing how those gates would have been torn down by the Blue Buddies if the outcasts at Vendetta point had not made us stop them from attacking the gates with their siege weapons.
Sylvanas murdered a bunch of high-ranking officials who were breaking the treaty. There was nowhere said that they could leave, they were told they could meet their families. That is it. No one said they were allowed to desert their positions. She executed traitors. She didn’t murder people, seeing how you can see that the Alliance people all were allowed to run away. (And now, that Instigator does not count as Alliance, if she did, then it would have been another Alliance aggression to add to the list, inciting a coup among the enemy populace)
I agree with most what you said, I understand that some people do not like her, that their moral code is strong and that Sylvanas spits on it. But here is the thing: She is Warchief, she is Undead, She is not a Orc and thusly is not bound by their rules.
Why was it okay for Thrall to enforce his will on others? Trolls? Stop cannibalism or else you will not join the Horde. (As one example). Why was it okay that people had to conform to one Warchief, but suddenly not okay when you have to conform to a Warchief just because she hurts your feelings?
And I am sure there are better way to doing this then immediately suggesting surrender right after the Alliance got done murdering their way through Dazar’alor, during the funeral of the King infront of the new Queen who just lost her father to these monsters. Really? I am supposed to understand why ANYONE would think that okay? In the eyes of the Horde (unreliable narrator) the Alliance was about to enslave the Zandalari and imprison Talanji and murdered Rastakhan for not bowing to these demands. Then this pansy shows up and tells her that they should just surrender, right after the Alliance got done murdering civilians, priests, looting their city, murdering a beloved King and destroying part of their navy.
We want to talk morality? Fine, but I only see Baine chastizing Sylvanas, he has never done so against the Alliance who have done stuff just as bad, but no, he makes excuses for them. His mentality of ‘Peace at any cost, even if it means turning back into Alliance slaves.’ Is not a mentality I can get behind or understand, ever.
Baine’s a weak, mopey victim. Plenty of us aren’t happy with the story direction Blizzard has taken with Sylvanas but still want nothing to do with Baine. He’s just LAME. Is that so hard to understand?
If you’re only going to give me bad story options, then I prefer the bad story option where at least the Warchief isn’t a total wuss.
Not to be nitpicky, because I do get where you’re coming from, but Baine suggested Peace Talks… not Surrender. Big difference. Negotiating a Treaty means finding an agreement that solidifies an end to hostilities that both sides agree upon. Surrender means literally laying down your arms and declaring the other side the winner; Baine said no such thing.
This exemplifies my point of people having different honor codes. To many, honor is a code tied to their inner moral compass, to others it is tied to loyalty. Your view on Sylvanas in this paragraph illustrates the loyalty side of that. She’s Warchief, and isnt kicking races out of the Horde like Garrosh, so as a Horde Warrior you feel you must remain true to her and help her defend the Horde, because despite her cold methods she is trying to win the war for the Horde and hasnt betrayed them.
However, the flipside to this is that those who believe the Horde’s honor was tied to morality feel that many of her actions have made her the traitor, because she has betrayed what the Horde is supposed to be. To someone on this side of the argument, acting against Sylvanas is not an act of betrayal to the Horde because she has already led them to a place she shouldnt have. In Baine’s view, he has betrayed Sylvanas and not the Horde; not because he’s an Alliance fanboy, but because he can no longer go along with the darkenening of something his father helped create.
To someone like Geya’Rah, he betrayed the Horde because he betrayed the Warchief.
To someone like Saurfang, she has already betrayed the Horde, and thus Baine’s actions were an act of loyalty to the Horde’s values.
All I got from this post was “it’s ok for Sylvanas and Vol’jin to do what I hate Baine and Saurfang for doing”.
Sylvanas is supposedly about free will -> murders Forsaken who might leave her -> kills and raises Horde soldiers against their will -> justified.
Vol’jin rebels against his Warchief -> kills “Horde soldiers” -> asks enemy faction for help -> justified.
Baine talks smack to Sylvanas for being a warmonger -> sneaks onto ship and kills “Horde soldiers” -> sets free human who was raised against his will and being brainwashed to kill his own family -> dirty traitor.
Saurfang talks smack to Sylvanas for burning Teldrassil for no reason -> talks smack for Sylvanas killing and raising Horde soldiers -> gets captured and refuses to return to the United People’s Horde -> escapes Stormwind and survives an assassination attempt by Sylvanas -> dirty traitor.
Like, I can’t even with you. If you want to be for Sylvanas, you can do so without being a hypocrite.
Peace talks from a guy who claims that a village where hunters are being trained, filled with civilians with soldiers no longer there, was a viable military Target.
Let us be honest there, what good is this Peace Talk, when the Alliance are apparently ‘winning’ which I still wonder how…
The Alliance could make any claim and Baine would just nod and smile.
If that is all you got, then you need to reread. Let me help by correcting a few of your errors and comparing it:
She is.
Executes Forsaken government officials who have been conspiring with Menethil in a coup to replace her as leader. Treason, which is punishable even in our real world, by death.
Against their will, huh? Did you hear what the Val’kyr said in Darkshore during that questline? ‘Only willing souls can be raised’. Thusly, if we go by this new lore, each and every corpse she raised there was willing to rise.
Yes.
Yes, after he has shown to want to murder Vol’jin and kicked out his trolls, the tauren and anyone who wasn’t a Orc or conscribed to his beliefs, out of the Horde. None of which Sylvanas has done.
Which is quite hypocritical, seeing how the Alliance started this war and that he is best busom buddies with one of these Warmongers.
Remove the quotation marks, like it or not, those were Horde soldiers.
Sets free a enemy to the enemy who just got done murdering our allies. And effectively sabotages our war (again), if that is what happens.
Why was Derek on that ship to begin with? Why did Nathanos tell you to do nothing and just help Baine and let him believe he succeeds?
The answer is obvious, Derek is already brainwashed, Nathanos just thought it was a smarter move to have Baine, a Alliance sympathizer, deliver Derek to Jaina to trick them.
Yep.
No reason? Being a little unfair here, aren’t you. The burning of Teldrassil was done as a act to break elven moral. That should have been done with the death of Malfurion, which Saurfang failed in doing because he is useless.
Justified, it goes against his beliefs and his honor, so he is allowed to feel miffed about it.
Yep, showing just how much he does not care about the Horde, rather rotting away in some dungeon and wallowing in self-pity, rather then returning to do the right Orcish thing: Go back and claim Sylvanas’ head. If he would have done that from the get-go I would have not had a problem with Saurfang.
For treason, seeing how Saurfang has admitted to Anduin to have purposefully allowed him to survive so he may cut down Sylvanas, way before the Blight was deployed.
Yep.
It is funny you should bring up hypocrisy, since that is the exact reason I cannot stand Saurfang, he preaches all about Orcish honor yet fails to uphold it himself. Instead of facing his enemy (Sylvanas) head on, he runs away and betrays the Horde to the Alliance. You know how Orcs see running away from your enemy? Well… let me tell you by comparing it to a questline in the barrens:
Warlord Gra’dul has refused to send forces to fight, incidentally allowing the Alliance to slaughter Taurajo, suffice it to say, Warlord Bloodhilt was not happy. And he was to be executed for his cowardice. They fight, Gra’dul after stubbing his toe yields. In the undieing words of Warlord Bloodhilt:
Yield? You… YIELD?! What part of ‘Victory or Death’ don’t you understand?!
Before promptly tossing him out the window. Saurfang ran away, betraying his Orcish honor, so he has no soap-box to stand on. Sylvanas does not follow Orcish honor, neither does Saurfang. Hypocrisy is why I hate him.
I hate Baine for being a Alliance-loving pansy. So on a hierarchy of who is worse, Baine is the worst, Saurfang being second.
Add to that that you are forcing me to choose between a genocidal, dishonorable undead Queen (who I love by the way, but I can see why others don’t) who tries her best to win a war against the Alliance or two Alliance sympathizers who would have us live under Alliance boots as long as they can get their peace. Yeah… I choose the genocidal maniac, at least she isn’t willing to let the Alliance shackle her or her subjects.
I am given two choices here, both, in terms of my non-douche characters, are horrible, but one is worse then the other. And that is siding with a dishonorable old, suicidal Orc and a enemy-sympathizing Tauren who would sell out his own people for the Alliance.
You want me to choose someone besides Sylvanas? Alright, give me someone who will not roll over for the Alliance and hold them accountable for all their acts of war before Sylvanas even ‘STARTED’ this war.
Garrosh attempted to assassinate Voljin and basically threw him out of the Horde.
I don’t think either situation is comparable to Baine or Saurfang atm. Neither of them were targeted by Sylvanas first. Both of them were the first to act aggressively against their own faction. There’s no gymnastics to be done.
That’s not even true and it is mental gymnastics, whether you like it or not.
Vol’jin was against Garrosh from the get-go. Go level a Troll and you can even see the conversation with Vol’jin threatening to kill Garrosh before he even did anything.
Sylvanas’ actions at Undercity aren’t excusable in any circumstance. What she did was totally against the entire identity of the Horde. What she did at Undercity and with Derek is completely against her “FrEe WiLl” drivel.
He didn’t ACT on it though. You might find that I did not condemn Saurfang for speaking out against what Sylvanas did. It only became a problem when he literally betrayed her. Yeah, Vol’jin did screw up with Garrosh, talking all manner of trash to the Warchief, and probably instilling his hate in trolls at that moment. So Garrosh was justified in booting Vol’jin, but at that moment, Vol’jin is no longer a traitor, he was not part of Garrosh’s Horde (as Garrosh himself said.) Thusly Garrosh had broken away from the original Horde and made his own, Vol’jin and all the members of the new Horde, decided to ally themselves who also saw Garrosh’s new Horde as a threat and beat them.
They already have been excused, you saying so does not make it so, sorry buddy.
YOUR identity of the Horde, She isn’t thrall, she isn’t a Orc, she isn’t a troll or Tauren, she is undead and is leader of the Horde, she has done nothing to purposefully and with malicious intent harm the members of the Horde. Did a few soldiers die as collateral so that the majority would not be slaughtered? Yes, she did. Which is justified.
Raising mindless undead? I point to you back to the Val’kyr who states that only the willing can be raised.
Derek is the only point you have, and one can make the argument that Derek was never meant to be a Forsaken, he was meant to be a tool, nothing more.
Yeah it was soooooo bad that no one but Saurfang cared. Baine didn’t do a damn thing until Jaina was involved, please don’t pretend any of that crap had to do with upholding the honor of the Horde lol.
Yes, it is. When you condemn the actions of one and then justify the actions of another who did the same thing because you like them more, it is mental gymnastics.
Baine and Saurfang didn’t act against Sylvanas until she started being Lich Queen. It wasn’t until UC that they realized how out of control Sylvanas was already becoming. You know, exactly like Vol’jin.
This is the new Horde. Current Horde doesn’t raise the dead for laughs. Vol’jin did the same thing. Especially when every race except (Sylvanas-retarded) Forsaken and arguably Goblins hold the same values.
That’s a falsehood even shown in-game. There are farmers in Western Plaguelands you kill and then immediately raise. You even do it in the War Campaign. “Willing only” my butt.
Might as well stop all discussion on this expac then.
Why would Lor be the first to act against her? Him being cautious is pretty IC. The honor bros “acting” first is one of the few things that makes sense.
No, you just refuse to see the nuances on why one was acceptable and the other wasn’t. You refuse to acknowledge the differences.
Erm… excuse me? Sylvanas did nothing to harm or risk Saurfang more then necessary, heck, she even remained behind to cover Baine’s escape. Saurfang spoke to Anduin that he was already commiting treasonous acts by allowing the enemy leader to live and prolong the war, merely in hopes of that he might kill her. And before Sylvanas did anything to Baine, he betrayed her by attempting to sabotage her plans. Vol’jin ONLY acted after Garrosh outright tried to have him killed and kicked out the Tauren and the Trolls.
Maybe it is, but the difference is that Garrosh didn’t just change the Horde, he kicked all other races of the Horde out and proclaimed the ones who followed him the true Horde. Sylvanas doesn’t do anything like that, does she act against some of the others moral beliefs? Yeah. Did she kick them out for voicing their displeasure? Did she try to have them murdered? No. Again your comparison falls flat.
Sorry, new lore supercedes old Lore, the lore I am citing is fresh, right from the Darkshore questline, thusly that is current lore and correct, Western Plaguelands was several expansions ago. Don’t like the retcons? Guess what buddy. Neither do I XD
Weird seeing how you are incapable of bringing up any other solid argument besides Derek who can still be debated on.
Why would the guy who’s nation was ransacked by an army of zombies be against his Warchief raising his faction members into the undead against their will? Hmm, no idea, honestly.
There aren’t any big nuances, you’re just being a stubborn child.
Garrosh did nothing to harm Vol’jin or the Trolls until MoP either. Vol’jin was plotting against Garrosh before Garrosh even became a warmonger in MoP. Where was your “LOYALTEE AND HONAR TO WARCHAYF” then? Why didn’t Sylvanas kill Malfurion when Saurfang saved her? Why did Saurfang have to do it? Why didn’t Sylvanas occupy Teldrassil and instead destroyed her only way of winning the war? Why is Sylvanas such a tactical moron? Why did Saurfang abandon the Horde when Sylvanas threatened to raise him like his son was by the Lich King? Only the writers know. Baine sabotaged her plans because it was too far and even against her own supposed code of “free will”.
Garrosh changed the Horde just like Sylvanas is. The only difference is that the writers had everyone be in character against Garrosh and out of character against Sylvanas. There are also instances of Sylvanas threatening and even killing those who try to speak out. I’ve already named a few.
They didn’t even retcon it when they raised Kul Tirans against their will in the War Campaign, so you’re wrong again. Unless you want to argue Derek and every other Kul Tiran besides Zelling willingly let themselves be raised lmfao.
Weird how you still can’t see your own hypocrisy bud. I’ve proven my points, you’re just arguing semantics and head canon.
Maybe if she did it to his people… which was pointed out in the SoO interaction between them. I think Lor is pragmatic enough to know that if UC falls there’s nothing standing between the Alliance and Quel’thalas. If she’s gotta raise some troops to try and stop that from happening as a last-ditch effort, well, sorry mooks. Lor isn’t as tethered to this bombastic idea of honor that Saurfang and Baine are.
I mean, it’s not our fault they didn’t give us choices back then. I’m sure many people would have sided with Garrosh since so many still spew about True Horde and how the Elves and Forsaken don’t belong in the faction despite being two of the most played races and, yknow, being in the faction for most of the game’s existence.
There are, you just refuse to accept them, and are reducing yourself to insults because you have no arguments, whatsoever.
Wrong, he said he did not like Garrosh, and he is free to not like him, just as how Saurfang and Baine are free to not like her.
Garrosh himself said that he was no longer my Warchief, Garrosh himself said that I was no longer ‘PART… of HIS HORDE!’.
Writer intervention? To prove his loyalty? Ask the writers, I don’t know, but guess what: I gotta deal with it.
Cause Saurfang failed in a basic order to break the enemy moral by killing their leader. So the occupation of Teldrassil was not feasible as she more then likely remembers the last time she occupied a land without killing the leader and living the civilians alive. If you can’t remember, go to Gilneas, the leader inspired the civilians to become rebels and fight.
Weird, how the only way that Alliance can win is with deus ex machinas, plot conveniences and Mary Sues.
Hey, she made a valid point, that idiot only cares about his own suicidal mission. So why should Sylvanas be nice to a person who cares nothing but to die?
Why did she not stop her when she raised his own people as mindless undead? Keep telling yourself that this was all about honor, it wasn’t.
One sliver which is correct, the rest is false.
Sorry, did those undead that were raised say before they died that they don’t want to be raised? Did you hear their spirits? No? Then you wouldn’t know, thank you. I think a Val’kyr who can literally hear the souls of the dead knows the intricacies of necromancy more then you.
Says the dude refusing to accept canon because you don’t like it. So tell me, who is the hypocrite? No wait, let me answer before you do any more of your mental gymnastics: It is you.