Or maybe the Korean Horde haven’t yet learned how to use the map advantages they have.
It took American Horde a long time to learn how to do it.
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At the OP… why do you even care? You’re Horde, and you’re getting the PvP you wanted. I get alliance grumbling, but Horde have no reason to gripe right now, except for queue times.
And queue times are a result of lopsided faction ratios, not a boycott. Changing AV won’t fix that. Horde’s just a bit more popular than alliance.
What about SH and IB? I mean if we’re going to point out differences in two mostly irrelevant gys, let’s compare two of the most relevant on the map. That means IB needs more than one entry.
They already removed a lot of NPCs to give us this version of AV. But if that will eliminate excuses, then do it.
Yes, please. Another gy that’s shooting fish in a barrel but on the horde side this time.
How about fixing the backdoors into the keeps?
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Korean sit in a lounge have discord up. It’s a premade technically. If you cannot tell the map favors the horde then obviously nothing to talk about to you.
It be like explain to a two year old 2 + 2 = 4.
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It’s funny, OP says that Horde didn’t pull this strat in vanilla, and from his perspective maybe they didn’t.
On my old vanilla server, they DID pull this strat. The result was alliance never won unless our top raiding guild did a premade and you were lucky enough to tag along.
So we ended up boycotting AV and games would never launch for anyone. All of that got fixed with cross realm BGs of course. Nevertheless, I think you all should take the OP seriously.
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Without the ridiculous Horde queues, I’m guessing Horde aren’t incentivized to hard cap SHGY and force a turtle that will take at least 30 minutes and often 50+. If you’re not hard capping SHGY and bottling Alliance in the northern third of the map, then the map won’t seem as favorable to Horde. Try convincing the Horde to do that on Korean servers…I’m guessing the response will be “no that will cause a turtle.”
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I should also add, that if you think horde queues are bad now, wait until AB launches.
On my old server, that was the death blow for AV until cross realm BGs came out.
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Yeah I can only comment on what I noticed on my server Executus which was eventually a part of Stormstrike battlegroup. I don’t ever recall our server/battlegroup having this type of meta develop during vanilla to the point where alliance refused to queue or queues got outrageously long after AV 1.12 started.
The strategy was always available though once we were in AV 1.12 with the current map, it’s just that with more balanced populations back in vanilla with crbgs and quicker queues, both sides were just trying to get to Drek/Vann and as far as I remember, horde side wasn’t going full scorched earth like the current meta.
It’s just too obvious now that the alliance is already well behind at the start of every match.
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man you have to be really stupid to think the map favors alliance at all.
As already mentioned cave location
Vann’s bunker is RIGHT beside the GY flag making it way harder to stealth re-cap
stormpike GY is in a gulch of sorts with hills that the horde can sit on top of and you can also shoot ranged attacks through them at the people that spawn. So once the whole team starts spawning here it’s really easy to sit here and farm them.
The “back entrance” to the alliance keep is way easier to get into than the “back entrance” up the horde waterfall. The waterfall takes probably 5x as long to get up and is much harder to perfect the jumps.
Moving the cave is fine with me. We’ll actually rez at FWGY instead of in the cave, which would be a huge advantage for horde.
Here’s the problem with the OP… we can talk about initiative etc all day long, but once our forces engage each other the fact is the alliance lose the fight almost every time. That’s why we take SHGY.
Until alliance pvp players are winning the actual fights, the map “imbalance” means little to nothing.
Point is, player skill trumps the map layout by a massive margin.
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I’m sure it’s possible that in a different situation Alliance would be winning >50% of the matches, but that depends entirely on horde giving up the current meta.
Maybe in Korea the horde don’t pursue a full SH GY hard cap/IWB choke strategy, but it’s clearly available on the AV 1.12 map.
Horde has to be willing to turn every match into a 30-35 minute game though by forcing all alliance north of IWB; it’s possible that on Korean servers, they don’t want that and are willing to allow alliance to move south towards Drek so the horde faces much less resistance on the way to Vann.
But with 1+ hour queues over here, the horde is incentivized to go for the full 5940-0 scorched earth strategy.
Ultimately, that’s why I think the map needs to change and the most important change is moving the horde cave south. That single change would reorient the map to give alliance the same initiative at the start of the games that the horde currently enjoys.
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These are valid points.
Dare I bring up the bridge? There’s no reason the alliance shouldn’t defend that damn thing, like horde defend IB choke.
You can bring up the bridge all you want, but you and I both know you have already won the game by then so what does it matter? Have you ever seen an Alliance pug manage to turn it around from there? I haven’t because IWB choke is practically unbeatable unless you are in a premade.
For the record: When Alliance manage to take IBGY, they still have to beat your cave spawn reinforcements. Then they have to push to FWGY where you have some Horde spawning on the GY AND some Horde spawning at the cave to retake IBGY. When you take SHGY you have nothing more to worry about at the game is basically over.
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I don’t think the map is the sole reason horde is winning 98-99% of the matches.
Far more often, horde has significantly more higher ranked players with better gear. Likewise, alliance typically has more AFK players. Those are important reasons.
But if the cave was moved south, the map would be significantly more balanced than it is now, and the horde win rate would probably go down to around 65-70%. That’s a much more balanced outcome than what we’re currently seeing where alliance players are often going days without wins.
I’ve seen plenty of matches where alliance win some early skirmishes, but given that the initial battles happened on the north side of Field of Strife, they’re still steadily pushed back. And once SH GY is capped and they’re rezzing at SP GY, it doesn’t matter if they won early skirmishes because their rezzers are way too far away to help while horde has an extra 60-90 seconds of rezzers coming from IB GY before IB GY is capped.
The matches that have convinced me the most are those matches where I’ve seen alliance win significant battles and still lose based on map positioning. Those are the most problematic outcomes.
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How can you possibly think that rezzing 10 at a time (instead of 20) farther away is an advantage?
Also…Horde don’t win that first engage every time. It’s often a stalemate. In the instances that Alliance decisively wins it’s still difficult for them to actually win the game though, whereas if Horde sweep that engage the game is over.
If Alliance want to move down the map they HAVE to split their forces because they can’t mount an offense if SHGY gets capped before they get a southern GY. Horde can stay together and focus SHGY.
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Those are the matches that’ve convinced me the most. I’ve seen plenty of times the alliance wipes the horde in the initial battle and yet still loses because there’s no really great options beyond premade-like strategies that alliance pugs can’t really pull off.
I’ve seen plenty of times that the alliance gets 20+ to IB GY and still loses.
There’s plenty of imbalances on the map that can be argued about in terms of who they favor, but the horde cave location grants first battle initiative to the horde and grants fast defensive reinforcements to IB GY. Those are the two biggest flaws on the current map and both are granted by the horde cave location.
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so how come when av launched the alliance were winning all the avs and now they cant win what has changed?
you arnt winning in av preamdes any more thats what changed.the amp has been the same since av launch.
the alliance just suck at pvp unless they are in a premade.
I do think queue times will come down if the map is changed a bit. I don’t see why anybody on the alliance side would queue now after hitting exalted.
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Spawning at the cave instead of FWGY is a disadvantage.