I don’t think you understand, once the Horde control the choke point, there is no way and I mean NO WAY of coming back. Trying to get 40 people to work together in a video game isn’t the easiest task, and with instant queues, and people already defeated because they just played the EXACT same game 100 times and they know that there is no point, so either /afk or just wait at SP until the Horde come so they can get HKs, until the Horde inevitably get the GY and there you go.
It’s the same song and dance EVERY single game for the Alliance, people on the faction have accepted this. Horde understand they have positional map advantage, and abuse it every single game.
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Trust me, I understand what you’re trying to say.
But do you understand how when you say “people give up” its hard to attribute losing to anything else than “people give up.”
Well what’s the point in fighting a hopeless battle when one side faces so many disadvantages? People don’t care anymore, and like I said they already know the outcome of the game. They just want to get out as fast as possible at that point.
Horde have to wait an hour to get into a game. We wait 3 minutes.
There is the problem right there. Faction imbalance, including map advantage, effectively contribute to the problem of people “not caring”.
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I believe the Alliance believes they’re at a massive disadvantage, because they are in-fact losing.
But we both agree that the Alliance really are giving up and no longer participating…and I am more likely to believe that “giving up” leading to a lot of losses that could have been long, grindy wins.
I am not saying the map is balanced, but I am saying it is hard to tell what is actually wrong with the map if the Alliance keep giving up because its easier to just restart and phish for a new game.
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That’s the thing. Going back to the 3 minute queue timer and faction imbalance, it’s impossible when you have half the people wanting to win and the other half not caring. There’s no incentive for us to have long, grindy wins, when we can just get right back into a match after a loss. So is it really an Alliance attitude problem, or is it a problem that stems from Blizzard unable to control the population? Is it both? Who knows, what I do know is that, unless map changes are made - there will be no Alliance success. Ever. Unless our queue times jump up to half an hour. Won’t happen.
There IS incentive for Horde to have long, grindy games because you wait so long. That’s why you guys chase us down and send 10 people back to take a tower at the 45 minute mark. You’re squeezing every ounce of honor, because you need to.
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I think we fundamentally agree on the problem then. At least it kinda sounds like we do.
I don’t however have a great solution. Would making the Alliance wait even longer give them some intensive to try harder? I dunno what would be intensive enough for the Alliance to try until the very end.
How about just switch map sides? Blizzard would never do this. There’s literally a horde statue in front of their headquarters. Ion plays a horde character, always has played one and bragged about never touching Alliance:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/malganis/gurgthock
Let’s not forget the little jabs at Alliance: “Back in ICC there was the Hellscream buff, or whatever the buff was for people who were playing the wrong faction” - Josh Allen
And there were two changes made to Classic AV because the poor, poor horde were getting camped in their cave by “premades.”
But changing anything in AV to make things fair for the Alliance is something you will never, never see.
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No, because it was bad when it launced when everyone was playing. We won more because of the zerg. If both sides are playing the map though, it is quite clearly broken. It is not hard to judge because it was seen before so many people were leeching.
There is no “nuance” that explains away a nearly 100% win rate.
It’s not a gun with a different noise tricking people into a distorted perception. 
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I know for Horde it is a desire to win because our queues are so long. We wait that 90 minutes to play a match that might end in 30 or 70 minutes depending if the Alliance team comes to win. Lately I have been going close to 50/50 in my matches because do to recent changes with premade eliminated and now bot / afk’s seem less.
A lot of matches I see HKs for both Alliance and Horde in the 200 and as high as 600 range for AV. WsG is just a entirely different beast where you only get honor if you manage to kill someone on a premade team which usually is a graveyard camp and opposing team ghost’s out then. Least with AV you can ghost to another graveyard you might control to revive and mount a different offense.
As far as the map is concerned, the Alliance use to show any map advantage that the Horde might have was pointless. We lost after 7-8 minutes for 3-4 weeks. Does the Horde cave need to be moved, probably in the current meta of the map. Do the back doors to each base need to be removed, no as they where designed into the game to end stalemates / alternative ways to ferry troops into battle.
One must remember even in real world battles, terrain is what it is and some engineers make poor decisions. The difference there is in real world applications you can make constant changes to the battlefield. The battlegrounds where designed from a role play perspective as you forget any known advantages / disadvantages by your avatar each time you enter or leave them. Its the player who won’t forget and that in itself lies the problem when maps never change.
I simply don’t understand how anyone can acknowledge that their team has a high percentage of people not playing and that they’re willing to give up and attribute losing to anything else but that.
It feels like every conversation goes like this:
Me: You gave up?
Alliance: Yes
Me: Maybe you lost because you gave up?
Alliance: NO MAP BAD.
The funny thing about that example is because were so convinced that one of the two identical guns was massively overpowered against the other they were begging the development team to nerf it. They were literally losing more with one identical gun against the other.
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Just wait until Arathi Basin releases. Pug vs Pug…very often will result in 5 cap horde wins.
What then? will you blame the 5 cap loss on AV map imbalance?
I have seen Alliance fight just fine or better many times in AV…but overall. I stress…overall.
Your faction has some quitters and less than good players. Maybe not you…but overall.
And that means alot in a battleground.
It’s not the map. It actually is just your faction.
I think if the Horde screamed enough for them to switch up the sides, Blizzard would do it. They made changes when you cried before, so why not? Put your money where your mouth is.
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You do know, that the Alliance got Alliance premades killed? Between this:
https://imgur.com/NHUHzyW
And the Alliance mass reporting their own faction.
Lets not blame the wrong people just because you’re upset.
This is just blame switching. There’s been a LOT more uproar over the map imbalances and Blizzard hasn’t done anything about that. So no, I don’t believe for a second that they made changes for Alliance.
But never mind that now. Stop dilly-dallying and get your faction organized behind changing up the sides.
So you agree with me then that it was the Alliance that got Alliance premades killed?
Let me rephrase… oh wait, no need to:
You’re stalling. Go.
You have this strange tin-foil hat level conspiracy theory that the Devs are all secret Horde agents. I am trying to show you that Blizzard was responding to the Alliance’s complaints about AV.
But I show you exactly why Blizzard killed Premades, and your response is still “Nope, Horde”
And here I thought you might be serious about getting behind switching up the starting points.
No. I don’t think Blizzard made AV changes for Alliance. And I will never be convinced of that no matter how many times you trot out that same screen shot.
You said you were all about switching up the sides, so let’s see you advocate for that instead of trying to pivot.
I doubt you or any other horde will do so, though, because all you seem to do is BS and obfuscate.
So you are admitting to being unwilling to be reasoned with. That is the literal definiton of being unreasonable.
We’re talking about the reason behind killing AV premades, this is pivoting away from that conversation.
In that case, H loses its 4:1 advantage and has only the 2:1 advantage from spawning half as far away. But of course if that isn’t enough they can just recall more people till there ARE 11 people dying every respawn cycle.