They were equal, because horde backdoor being fixed helps the horde a lot less than alliance backdoor being fixed in terms of improving the effectiveness of the choke points
By having the backdoors it made both choke points basically even because a choke point doesn’t mean much where it’s easily bypassed. But now that they can’t be bypassed, the more effective choke point, which is the alliance bridge, becomes the better defenders advantage.
If there are ways around a choke point it’s no longer a choke point and thus loses basically all of its value. So both alliance and horde base choke points had no real value. Now that the choke points don’t have a backdoor their value is restored and alliance choke point it better in basically every way.
Funny, I’ve been saying that for half a year to the result of nonstop Horde mockery, it’s pretty gross that suddenly you all change your mind the moment it’s fixed.
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Also the fact you can chose to spawn (based on where you die by the bridge) at your cave allows alliance to pass the horde offensive sending 20 alliance onto offensive while 20 use the benifit of the now fixed choke point to hold off the horde.
Heck even 5-10 alliance chosing to go offense while the rest defend let’s them soft cap any objective they want until the horse reply to it.
Sending 2 alliance to each horde tower and soft capping every tower then the graveyards is a good way to force a huge amount of horde back onto defence and let’s the alliance push out of their base, as alliance can cap those towers/GY then trinket back to push the horde back. And the horde will send people back to recap.
The alliance choke point before the backdoor was fixed was still better, but it’s like comparing $1 to $.90 with alliance vs horde base with backdoor vs $100 to $40 with the backdoor being fixed.
Before the fix alliance base was still the better one to defend, but not nearly as much of an advantage as it will be now that it is fixed.
But you’re missing the entire point. By that point in the game there is literally ZERO incentive for alliance to win. We would literally be hurting ourselves by attempting to flip the whole map. Seeing as nobody in alliance AV cares about PvP, and are merely there to leech their way to welfare purples, I think we can both agree that these changes are not only wayyyy too late but also completely inconsequential.
See, that’s a player mentality issue. And I’ve been saying this is the reason alliance lose AV for a loooonnngg time. It’s not the map, it’s who’s on the alliance team.
They don’t try to win, they try to farm rep. And that’s the number one factor causing the 99% loss rate for alliance.
I agree the changes are way to late, the ban wave that got rid of most of the AV bots/afk/leechers (key word, most) was to late and resulted in the pve rep farm strategy the alliance use now.
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It’s not a mentality issue it’s an INCENTIVE issue caused by us having short qs and you having long ones. Which is why I KEEP saying that pvp population balance IS THE PROBLEM.
A pug is not going to have that level of coordination, and if a Horde is able to get to the bridge with Alliance having nothing there’s no real chance of taking the entire map with half the team in the time it takes to get one last BG.
A premade could do it, but a pug with at least 10 bots/afkers won’t.
If they changed cave spawns, the Alliance would be fine on the Horde end of the map past IBGY, and would have the advantage on the Alliance side. But the middle part of the map is too heavily Horde favoured- it blocks access to offense for Alliance, and ensured no matter how poorly Horde plays or how bad they mess up they can reset the map on a whim.
There’s no difference between players- just the situation. If Horde are playing a match they have a 0% chance of winning they will move to a different BG too.
If you consider why players on both sides pvp, then it’s not hard to see why a poorly balanced map like AV will cause this. Generally speaking there’s two main incentives- the gear, and to have fun.
For Alliance, AV isn’t fun so immediately everyone who just wants to have fun in pvp has zero reason to be in AV. It gives no honour, so nobody looking to rank has reason to be there either. The rep rewards are all that’s left, but most serious players got those week one. If the only reason to be in AV is rep gear, of course you’re not going to have anyone doing it.
That’s ultimately the only way you’ll have Alliance in AV again- if it were to end up being enjoyable, or end up being a decent source of honour. I can say with complete certainty that because the new changes will do neither, they also won’t change Alliance participation rates.
The que is part of the problem, but each player chose their side and had the right to chose, blizzard should not be making changes to try to force people to chose a side. It’s not their fault people have a preference.
The pve hero’s chose alliance on average because alliance racials are “generally” better for pve, and the same for horde and PvP. But it’s not really a noticeable difference because both factions have pve racials and PvP racials.
As an example alliance humans have their sword specialization, orcs have axes, humans have anti stealth and orcs have a burst CD that reduces healing they take as well.
Overall orcs and humans (using proper weapons) have the same pve benifit passively because an orc using his dps racial active can easily get him killed in a raid and swords are generally better weapons for melee dps.
Humans are better as anti stealth (I believe this is a passive and becomes an active in TBC), orcs are better at resisting stuns.
Overall they are very close to even in terms of pve and PvP but people perceive one or the other having a “huge” advantage because of the situational benefits they have.
So again, the issue isn’t the map, it’s the afk/leeches.
Yes a pug can communicate to do strategies, horde have learned to do this without premading in AV, the problem, again is your teammates are not there to win, they are there to leech, afk, and pve rep farm simulator.
I don’t know how blizzard can fix the alliance lack of trying in AV, but that’s the number one issue holding alliance to that 99% loss rate.
Except there was a time when alliance didn’t have any worse of a problem there than horde. So it’s very much a map issue.
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This is the only change that affects anything. Starting position matters little if Horde keeps a 20-cap graveyard next to ibgy.
When? When alliance were infested with bots because of their instant que times?
This is the progression of alliance AV in classic.
We had premades, premades got broken so bugs became the normal, but because they were pugs they got infested with bots, by the time blizzard addressed the bots the damage to alliance motivation/mentality was done and they didn’t try to win any more.
Do you know why horde didn’t have nearly as much of an issue with bots? Our que times were to long to make botting efficient for farming AV so they didn’t do it to nearly the same degree and the horde who were in the BG would identify and report the bots because it wasn’t a “oh just get the next instant que” we had 1+ hours to wait usually and we were NOT tolerating them in our AV.
And we did have less of them due to the sheer number of horde trying to get in AV vs the number of bots, aka the que times.
We’re past the point of it mattering what the problem is. The battleground is dying because of the lopsided win rate, AV was a good way to get people into PVP given how pug friendly it was but who the hell on the Alliance side would want to continue participating in PVP after doing a couple AV’s?
Something needs to change or the queue times will continue to increase, the Horde can continue to blame the Alliance all they want as long as they’re content with the future state of 4hr+ queues.
I just explained it- there has to be a reason for people to play it, whether for enjoyment or for gear. Since there’s neither for Alliance in AV, it won’t happen until either can be restored.
But, since it’s clear Blizz doesn’t care to do anything, AV is as the title suggests pretty much dead.
You’re basically doing the same thing you’ve been doing for half a year- saying the problem is not enough Alliance queue which leaves what few are in there mostly bots and leeches. That’s not the problem though- that’s the result.
You get that none of us can change what bots and leeches do right? We can’t fix this problem by queuing into a game and forcing the bots to try to win. So keep blaming Alliance for not participating in the BG while refusing to acknowledge the reasons we don’t, I’m sure that’ll do something to your queues.
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Yea, this is the point I was trying to make above. It doesn’t really matter at this point how we got into this situation, we have to acknowledge that we did. If folks want AV to be a thing, something positive needs to change to get people back into it.
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They didn’t ban the bots though. They hit us with 1 ban wave and less than a week later they were all back. There is no mentality shift that can combat this.
Furthermore I’ve presented a very viable fix but like most other horde here you refuse to acknowledge it because it means you likely have to make a sacrifice… kind of like the sacrifice I made rolling alliance knowing full well all the PvPers would be horde. Now its your turn and if you wont take your turn then the conversation stops, the competition dies, and we chalk this up to another failed launch by Blizzard.
If Blizz wants to do anything, just push the cave back (its retail AV anyway) so there’s no more excuses.
Otherwise, let AV die if thats what our “real vanilla fans” want it to do.
The cave isn’t the issue, it’s a horde map advantage yes, but alliance have other advantage as well, for example the initial clash happens under alliance towers, with alliance NPC, exc there to help them defeat the hordes initial push, and gives them the chance to take the neutral graveyard but alliance essentially ignore that advantage. The initial clash happening on alliance terf helps the alliance because they have their NPC to help them. They can use this advantage to gain the neutral graveyard and essentially make alliance also have a close to horde 1st GY 20 spawns at a time from 10 at both GY. But they never capitalize on this advantage because to many of them are not even playing that it negates the advantage they have.
It is not the map.