I’m not denying horde cave is imbalanced. There is a 20 rez cycle possibility and alliance equivalent of SPGY is only 10 rez cycle. I admit that. But while this imbalance exists, it can also have zero impact. For example, if only 10 hordes or less die in 30 seconds I think you’ll agree it doesn’t have any impact at all. If 11 hordes die in 30 second, then the cave suddenly gives an actual advantage to horde : one more can rez instead of waiting 30 more seconds. I think you’ll also agree that only one more horde will have a very limited impact. And then maybe 12, 13, 14 up to the possibility of 20. The higher horde rezzers beyond 10 you’ll get, the more powerful the cave becomes.
However, people in this thread are acting like the horde cave cycling is always at his maximum potential of 20 which would undoubtedly be a huge advantage to horde. Hence, my point is the maximum cycling is rarely reached. Not only is the maximum 20 cycling is rarely obtained but it’s even rare 10 hordes die in 30 seconds. There is a lot of movement in AV and when you move, you usually don’t die. I’m not saying horde cave cycing never happens. I’m just saying it’s rare at least according to my experience. And when it happens, it’s rarely to it’s full potential.
People just usually don’t die that much in 30 seconds. It happens but on a low frequency or in special condition like when one group is being pushed into his own graveyard (when 40 alliances defends SHGY for example). But when hordes run back from cave, they can’t die that fast since they have 40 seconds to run back. So the crazy advantage of horde cave, while it is a possibility, will rarely apply. And if it does, the highest rez potential will almost never apply.
Look back at your screenshot (post 3838). You’re saying “Almost. Got. Wiped. Out […] The situation was dire. […] My people were suicide-spinning flag […] straight-up meleeing instead of healing so we die but get to spin flag for another second”. Yet your group has only 12 dead! So even in this extreme case scenario according to your own words there is only 12 dead on your side at the same time. So, even if alliance had a 20 cycle rez equivalent there, it would have barely made any difference in the worst case scenario represented by your screenshot. And I still need to point out that Torrent is full mana so something is wrong. If he was doing his job, you would have less dead. And this is just one bit I can get from the screenshot.
I said the “running back time for each faction to their first graveyard”. Not sure what you don’t understand.
40 seconds from IBGY (for the 100 times).
Yeah, I agree with that and that’s another reason why the 20 rez cycle will rarely apply.
Yeah and my point is it does not happen much, especially since they have to run back from cave. The longer they run, the less they will usually die.
Oh I totally realize it so spare me your useless insults. Especially from someone who was stating the running back time from cave to IBGY was such a massive advantage and still can’t admit it’s not. But apparently you’re the one who can’t realize the difference between an advantage and a “massive advantage” like your always claiming every imbalances are.
In a zerg game the cave rez doesn’t matter. However that’s simply not the meta currently being played by horde, and as such the cave rez very much matters.
I guess we’re ignoring the fact that Alliance can’t capture the Horde cave? You have a reinforcement point that is always close to IBGY that Alliance cannot capture. Even if Alliance hard cap IBGY, your cave can reinforce it very easily and there’s nothing Alliance can do about it.
So even if only 10 Horde are dying at a time at IBGY, the cave is still an advantage because it can never be captured and can always reinforce IBGY even if it’s hard capped.
We alrealdy know that angry gnome but keep ignoring I was just answering about locations.
And I don’t care if you don’t trust my timers. Go time it yourself and you’ll see. I already told you that. But you’re obviously not acting in good faith. You already know it takes 28 seconds from cave’s gate to IBGY. It doesn’t leave much space to get out of the cave : 12 seconds. But continue to talk about stupidness.
Yes I disagree it takes 12 seconds to run out of the cave.
Also your points are irrelevant as was stated before it makes no difference if it takes 28 seconds or 40 seconds, the point of this was that horde can reinforce IBGY faster and with more players than alliance can, which is why we can’t keep IBGY.
You keep ignoring that and spouting these times as if it has any merit to this argument.
Horde cave can’t be captured, you have the best placed graveyard in the game.
You arguing these ride times seems silly, as they don’t discount the facts. You can still out reinforce alliance at IBGY.
Both caves are close to a GY. Those negate each other - its the same for both teams. The alliance just doesnt like where theirs is - its hard to blame them.
Our cave comes in the play when the games are already over and we’re trying to finally get South to get anything out of the game.
Your cave comes into play immediately preventing us from getting our first objective.
But yeah they’re the same…
In fact our cave hurts us because when we have SPGY we Rez at SPGY but as soon as we lose it we now rez at our cave and the total opposite direction of where we need to defend.
So once you cap SPGy you literally get our last graveyard for free.
You disagree it takes 12 seconds to run out of the cave but you don’t have any timer. And you don’t time it yourself. Try alliance cave it will give you a good idea if you can’t believe it takes that time to run out of any cave …
Zero credibility my gnome. And don’t try to confuse people with the rez cycle or SPGY, that’s other stuff. Now that you know horde cave to IBGY is basically the same distance as ally from SPGY to SHGY the distance doesn’t matter for you anymore. Pretty convenient. “The distance is all that matters” … except when you’re proven wrong …
But the games not over. What you mean is the game is essentially over because the alliance hit their quit point. Thats not AVs fault. Youre putting player opinion and judgement calls ahead of how the map actually works. You cant win the debate with ‘feels’. Lets stick with the facts, okay?
Its not “my cave”. I pvp on for and against both factions. Anyhoo, whats the alliances first objective? There’s the obvious one for disorganized pugs who are just gonna zerg it - otherwise its whatever an actual team of experienced veterans decides it is in the moment.
They are the same. To suggest otherwise means you dont have a shred of objectivity on the matter as if it wasnt already obvious. They operate completely the same way for each team. They just have different points on the map. That is an intentional difference put in there by the game makers - like the alliance only having access to paladins and shaman for the horde - same principle.
Its not what each team has but what you do with it. The results pretty much explain which team is making better use of it.
Please. The alliance cave is a hop skip and a jump from SPGY and for a period of at least 5 minutes you have a spawning advantage to take it back.
Ehhh I really don’t like the concept behind Shadowlands and the whole expansion doesn’t feel great to me. I’ll probably be skipping it entirely unless I have friends who do it en masse and I just want to play with them.
I truly have lost faith in Blizzard’s ability to make decent games.
I’ve seen alliance literally lose games where its like 350 honor kills to 100. At the point where a 3.5 K/D ratio isn’t enough to overcome that cave rez.
The options for both teams is numerous but seeing as these are pug matches its really just reacting to stuff and thus only the most basic of strats are utilized - for the alliance this means pushing for SF at the start of a game but the nonsensical spawn mechanics where dead alliance are put as far away from the action as possible makes this unrealistic unless you’re a highly coordinated team with uber heals.
The other option is to let the horde have SF, wait for it to cap and then do a split squad thing where you push for IBGY (by going down the SHB sideline) with half the team while the other holds on to SHGY and this is where the alliance run into trouble.
For one, youre dealing with a savage horde team that will do anything it takes to win - if that means trinketing 35 people back to their base they will do it - I have yet to be a part of an alliance team that plays with this kind of flair. Ive faced them in horde losses however.
The other thing is the level of coordination and dedication required to pull off such a thing which is why I think its no small coincidence the alliance do better during the AV holiday. While its true that the horde have less to think about at this stage of the game and yes, that is partly the maps fault the alliance typically don’t do anything to counter it which just exacerbates the issue. No real pressure is ever really applied - its just a turtle at SH and SP GYs for the purposes of rep farming.