AV Cave Rez situation

[Graff-nathrezim]

@Corpseknife-mankrik

If we had those we could of enjoyed a non mirrored map where strengths and weaknesses were balanced out while providing rich variety.

We can still, just randomize the starts. Let the horde have fun defending north half the time.

[Graff-nathrezim]

@Drinknblink-whitemane

I think his point was that all of the AVs prior to 2.3 and 2.4 would still have this map advantage for horde.

Well the original AV had several side paths that you could go down as alternatives. There was no easy way to turtle it.

Even in later AV there were a lot more NPCs which meant each team had to deal with those in addition to players. SF wasn’t a simple cap for the horde and the times it took to get places were complicated by many things.

It really was patch 1.11 that made the BG favor horde so much, and only if they turtled. If the alliance could get past the horde then it was a race and slightly in the alliance’s favor.

[Corpseknife-mankrik]

@Graal-bloodsail-buccaneers

In my experience, there seems to be a north/south line that is to the west of the frozen lake in FoS and to the east of the SFGY flag - if an alliance player dies east of that line they respawn at SHGY (or SPGY) but if they are west of that line they respawn at AS.

Yeah Ive noticed this too. Like if I die in somewhat of a straight line (like SHB for example) from the GY I get ported back to SHGY.

Thats all well and good but because of the current layout against a hungry horde team the alliance are more or less forced to go objective to objective which means launching an attack on IBGY from SF but its next to impossible to achieve that unless the horde let you have it.

Most games where my alliance teams go SF and defend SH we can soft cap it but the horde can just keep sending their rezzers back a short distance while alliance rezzers are coming back from a point thats further away than their cave. Makes zero sense - you wouldnt even need to push the horde cave back if that was corrected.

[Kulla-bonechewer]

@Drinknblink-whitemane

Retail and thIs version are way different I believe.

Not really … the horde cave position is the big one.

[Graff-nathrezim]

Reinforcements isn’t a big difference??

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

@Graff-nathrezim

Reinforceme nts isn’t a big difference??

Sort of, in a zerg reinforcements don’t come into play at all. And in a scorched earth game reinforcements just mean the horde win without having to eventually kill the general.

Reinforcements don’t become a significant game changer except for the third meta where the teams are really going back and forth for 45+ minutes with no obvious winner. And that’s a meta we’re just not seeing in classic.

[Kulla-bonechewer]

@Graff-nathrezim

Reinforcements isn’t a big difference??

From a perspective of making Ally win AV more , it does not help , if anything it makes it worse for ally as the Ally choke point on the bridge means that Ally already behind by 300 points .

[Graff-nathrezim]

Ahh, yes. In that context I agree that the cave is a bigger difference. Reinforcements did help alliance a little because it gave them the ability to win off of defense if they did exceptionally well.

Of course, if the cave stayed where it was then horde would naturally kill a ton of alliance reinforcements without having to do much since some alliance bosses and SHB are south of where the two teams currently meet. This is one big reason the cave was moved in the first place.

[Kulla-bonechewer]

@Graff-nathrezim

Reinforcements did help alliance a little because it gave them the ability to win off of defense if they did exceptionally well.

They would have to play exceptionally well because as I said their choke point is at a location where they are behind 300 points ( 2 towers and Balinda ) while the Horde Choke point at SHB means that they have given up zero points.

[Graff-nathrezim]

Right, that’s why I said it only helped them a little. They’d either have to dominate at the bridge choke or they’d have to stop the horde at another point in the BG and dominate there without a choke.

Because horde tend to have the more natural choke points at better positions in the BG they have a bit of an advantage with the reinforcement mechanic. Various changes, such as the horde cave location, were buffs to the alliance because of this.

With the cave moved at least the alliance could stop the horde from getting SFGY, SHB, both summoning points, and those alliance bosses for free. And it made IBGY a bit less of a homerun to defend, although it’s still an amazing choke for the horde.

[Camenae-rattlegore]

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

While ranks is one element to take into consideration, it’s more about time investment so it doesn’t mean people with high ranks are good and people with low ranks are bad. High ranks mean they played a lot so they probably have a lot of experience and they have good gear. At this point though, many people have good gear too (T2, AQ40) and some other deranked (as a former rank 13 I’m now a sergeant something for example).

Sure I’ve played with my share of FM mages who can’t decurse me to literally save their lives, and that is why I did not post a screenshot of games when it’s just one or two groups of us having a hard time. Which happens all the time.

But in this one we had 25 rank 11+ players from different servers (so one can’t say, well this one server is known for having bad players). What are the chances that all 25 have no idea what they’re doing in PvP, and are worse than a random sampling of Senior Sergeants on Horde side?

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

I’m sure it was probably tough to cap IBGY in your AV but you still hard capped it in like 10 minutes. Meaning you soft-capped it in less than 5 minutes. I mean sometimes horde can’t even cap SHGY in 30 minutes (if not more). So sure it was hard but you did that really fast.

It’s not tough to softcap a southern GY for alliance. Normal alliance AV pugs manage that all the time in the first few minutes of the game. Because IB GY is the first southern objective.

It’s tough to hold it until, and even beyond, hardcap. That’s my point. That in my experience, the Horde cave res makes it far easier for Horde to overcome a successful Alliance initial offensive push, than vice versa. Thus why my almost full AV premade was having a hard time still against a random low ranked Horde pug.

If it was 25 Horde Lieutenant General+ on comms, against a group of Alliance Sergeant Majors, they would never have such a hard time as we did. Nor are they supposed to, when the team power differential is that great. You think we took that GY fast? Putting one’s opinions of premades aside, realistically speaking a premade like that roflstomping a pug is how things are supposed to play out.

Yet that was almost not the case due to cave res.

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

Now it doesn’t happen often with hordes. They expect to win, they waited 2 hours and in less than 5 minutes you soft capped IBGY. You can be sure they are infuriated and will rage rush your team and try to do everything in their power to recap IBGY. Plus they know there is nothing else to do since there is no offense team in the north to go and try to base race. It’s the breaking point. They lose all or that’s mostly it for hordes.

Yeah they were raging super hard, no arguments from me there. We got a lot of level 1 alts hate whispers from that game. Which by the way I didn’t cancel this post. It was taken down because apparently me recounting the insults level 1 alts said to me and my teammates, is treated the same as if I had said those things myself. So I had to edit it out before I can put this post up again.

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

Then the question of balance. Sure it’s hard for alliance at that point. But the question is still would that be the same for horde in the same situation at SHGY ?

No it sure as heck wouldn’t be the same for horde and that is my point. Once horde hard caps SH GY there ain’t no way any alliance team, even my groups, is taking it back from the horde. Trust me we’ve tried.

But in my screenshot you saw how once alliance hardcaps IB GY, horde could still easily take it back. The ONLY reason that did not happen that game is because the Alliance had 25 Commanders+ rankers in comms. Soooooo you can imagine how quick IB GY would’ve been gone in a flash if it was a normal Alliance pug.

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

Some people also says that the 20 rez cycle from horde cave allows 20 hordes to go back and keep pushing on alliance at IBGY until they are wiped while horde hold SHGY with their remaining forces. It’s true, horde does that strat often. But alliance can do it also. Does the rez cycle favors unduly horde ? Not really against a force of 20 because you will rarely be able to kill more then 10 hordes in 30 seconds trying to recap IBGY.

You don’t think my group of 25 rankers can kill 10 hordes in 30 seconds? We got 3 in the split second my screenshot was taken. But the faster we kill them the faster they can come back to reinforce themselves like zombies. Because they are ressing 20 at a time from their cave.

We can and do wipe them 20 at a time. But while we are waiting for graveyard to hardcap + the first res timer, they keep coming back 20 at a time and whittle us down wave after wave. Because we sure as heck aren’t getting 20 reinforcements at a time or even 10. We got what we’ve got still alive at IB GY.

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

So the real question is if 40 hordes are attacking IBGY, can you kill more than 10 per 30 seconds ? If so, how much ? Can you kill 20 per 30 seconds so the cave power is at his full potential ?

Yes we can. See above. So Blizz’s AV design requires Alliance to be good but not too good? We are supposed to kill Horde but not kill them too fast?

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

Maybe your fight was super hard yesterday. But I’m not so sure it was because of the rez cycle imbalance or at least, just because of that. Also, i noticed that your friend Torrent doesn’t seem to find the fight that hard. He’s spamming emotes and he is full mana. Just with that little example it seems the fight was not taken seriously by everyone which might be another reason it was a hard fight.

That’s also part of my point is that the fight is not SUPPOSED to be this hard when you have a 25-man rankers premade, on comms and sweaty AF with consumables, against a random pug. In WSG and AB such a premade would roflstomp a pug 99.9% of the time. Such is not the case for alliance in AV even with a team like that, and the reason is that dang cave.

The emotes are a weakaura that does certain emotes automatically when he performs certain actions. He’s not stopping casting to type /emotes. Yes he happens to be one of the last ones left alive, but that’s due to chance of horde happening to not have targeted him first, not because my group was not having a hard time.

Edited to add paragraph breaks.

[Camenae-rattlegore]

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

I guess if you need to insult people to prove your point you must be right. Maybe you should read some posts up there, it could enlightened you.

You also didn’t get my point that her group completely exploded hordes in 30 minutes. Try again. 2 days before she was trying to demonstrate how hard it was for her group to win to show how imbalanced was the map. Today we learn she’s doing 15 000 honor per hour with av. Little contradiction here my friend.

It was unnecessary to insult you. Other than that, he summarized my point rather succinctly and well. Which is that the success of my team is due to our level of preparation–in terms of gear, organization, experience, and sweatiness when it comes to consumables–being sufficient to overcome the map imbalances.

I’m sure you will agree that it is unreasonable to expect a normal Alliance AV pug to have that level of preparation–20+ Alliance rankers with engineering flasking and elixiring up and dropping sapper charges on CD on Discord. If that is what it takes for Alliance to win at all, then something is very wrong with the BG itself.

My example was also trying to show that even then, it was still almost not enough to overcome the kind of pressure that even a normal Horde pug can apply. A team like mine should be cakewalking, but we weren’t.

The 15k HPH is because we’ve gotten even better and more efficient now, with practice. It doesn’t contradict what I’ve said before.

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

They all think those imbalances don’t amount to anything but a 5% favor for horde, that’s what they think the map adds up to.

Wasting your energy explaining stuff they don’t have the PvP IQ to understand anything you’re saying and what those consequences mean for Alliance

[Fayld-westfall]

I wish. That would be a freaking riot!

[Jeromagnus-darkspear]

Did you get the pvp IQ to understand it takes 40 seconds to get from horde cave to IBGY ?

Did you get the pvp IQ to understand running back from FWGY to IBGY is almost the same running time for hordes vs horde cave to IBGY ?

Not only insulting people won’t help you to win any point. It just shows how wrong you are since the beginning and what kind of person you are.

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

Ok Mr 1500.

I questioned before what your point was, you never replied.

You’re sitting here preaching this 40 second narrative, as if it somehow proves alliance can out reinforce IBGY over the horde.

THEY CANT.

Your run back could be 50 seconds and it still CRUSHES the 90+ seconds it takes alliance to get back to IBGY from SPGY, so what’s your point??

Also most of you are preaching this horde don’t send 20+ back to IBGY to recap, scroll up for them screenshots bud, they CLEARLY do.

Which is the whole point of this thread.

AV CAVE REZ SITUATION.

Which is why alliance can’t push south or keep IBGY.

You have nothing to stop this argument or to add to it.

Congrats on the 40 second run to IBGY, I haven’t confirmed it but it’s irrelevant if it’s even true. It proves nothing to counter the argument that horde will ALWAYS win IBGY. Even VS full rank 14s.

[Jeromagnus-darkspear]

Lol personal attack against my casual alt …

1. I didn’t answer you cause Redhotchild did and I had nothing to add;
2. Even if you don’t officially admit it, you were wrong. You were stating in 100 posts above there was a massive imbalance between running back time for each faction to their first graveyard. So my point is this is not an imbalance so stop it. Is there other imbalances ? That’s something else then.

the fact that SPGY to IBGY vs. horde cave to SHGY would take much more time for alliance is a completely different argument. I’ll time it eventually but it has nothing to do with your initial statement that horde can run back from cave to IBGY in 28 seconds. It’s something new and something different.

BTW I never said hordes don’t send back 20+ to get back IBGY. But at all events, 20 hordes at IBGY don’t get advantage of 20 rez cycle at cave since they don’t all die at the same time. It can only happen when it’s 40 vs. 40. And even then.

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

Oh they don’t have an advantage at their first graveyard??

Remind us all again where their cave is??

Seems pretty massive to me and is the whole vocal point of this very thread.

It’s rarely 40 v 40 at IBGY.

You could send 25 or 30 back to IBGY and rez up to 20 at a time, even 11 rezing at a time is an advantage, but you’re small PvP IQ doesn’t realize that.

[Jadei-grobbulus]

The disappointing part is that many of us are just wanting a fun classic AV experience and what we got is not. Blizzard seems to be okay with that though.

[Camenae-rattlegore]

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

But at all events, 20 hordes at IBGY don’t get advantage of 20 rez cycle at cave since they don’t all die at the same time. It can only happen when it’s 40 vs. 40. And even then.

I don’t understand why you are denying something that I personally experience every night. Just won 2 more games where things got iffy at IB GY.

You have to realize that when Horde doesn’t have any northern GY hardcapped yet, and we just soft cap IB GY, then any Horde that dies gets sent back to the cave. So you get 10 that die at IB GY, a couple in the Field of Strife, a few that dies trying to take SH GY…and all of a sudden yes you do have 20 at a time coming out of the cave.

Alliance does not have this defensive advantage. If we lose our hard cap on SH GY, and we do not yet have any southern GY hardcapped yet, we don’t have a cave that resses us 20 at a time, whether that be 28 seconds or 40 seconds away from SH GY. Meanwhile the Horde might be killing us at SH when we’re trying to take it back, killing us at IB GY while we’re trying to hold it, killing stragglers in Field of Strife…and then we’re all back at SP GY waiting for res only 10 at a time, and many will easily miss res waves.