Who knows? Its purposefully vague and unexplained and unexplored for a reason.
The alliance argument has been hard to nail down because its been all over the place. Its also ripe with feels which tells you its probably not the most objective stance on the subject. The horde cave gives the horde a defensive advantage, an offensive advantage, turns SF, SH and SP GYs into horde vacation spots despite it being a pvp bg and otherwise turns godly pvpers into free hks like magic. Vann has to die for the horde to win but 30 horde south playing defense in a going nowhere stalemate = horde victory. Makes zero sense whatsoever but its irrefutable all the same.
The earlier arguments made a lot more sense and those were centered around the horde caves location and its spawn mechanics. Basically, the map plays defense for the horde by ensuring lots of them spawn there and is in close proximity to valuable objectives even though you can say that about that about every gy but I digress. The main crux of the issue as far as I can tell is there are too many horde south.and that makes it unnecessarily and unfairly difficult for the alliance to overcome.
The first thing I do is ask why there are that many horde south because there has to be a reason other than the map just put them there just because. Either they collectively decided to play defense because an alliance zerg showed up to take their stuff or the alliance gave them no other option and put the horde in that position by beating them further up on the map. Not really seeing where the map really plays into that because you can see this very thing at every other gy and choke in AV provided the conditions are met (lots of defenders there). If the problem is theres too many horde rezzing south than I dont see what a cave push back is really gonna do except ensure theres lots of horde south.
Can you see a problem with horde getting to SF about 20 seconds earlier at the start of the match and if alliance die contesting SF they rez back at Aid Station and not SH which is the actual closest graveyard?
Yes, yes I can say thatās a problem if that is indeed happening. But I can also say the game isnt over if the horde take SF in the opening minutes of the game and it doesnt belong to the horde permanently after that point.
AV is full of these little quirks - Id much rather base spawn than cave spawn when the allies have soft capped FWGY and thats part of the problem in my opinion. A couple little switcheroos and tweaks arent going to cut it - once you start making wholesale changes like the ones being discussed youre talking about a complete overhaul in the end - because thats what it would take.
That is why I chuckle when some alliance players flippantly post that all horde do is zugzug north, and yet are magically in existence down south as well, whatever the argumentative stylings may require at any point of the thread. Hell, sometimes the horde are in a secret hidden valley summoning lok, impossible to interrupt. Horde steamroll sp and the bridge, while simulteneously being at IWB, stonewalling any attempt of alliance to leak south.
That doesnāt take into account that horde can cut alliance off before they even reach the ramp into SF.
And thanks to rez flaws, dying at a contested SF sends alliance all the way back to AS. The farthest horde will rez is the cave and thatās if alliance have contested IBGY.
At this point heās confirmed he knows the map is flawed and needs to be fixed, heās just using this as a platform to rant about how horde are better at pvp than alliance.
Hey, do you remember when the alliance could still premade in AV but there was talk of that being taken away and the thousands of alliance posts that clearly stated that if the ability to premade was taken away they would stop doing AV and horde queues would rise?
And then when it actually happened? I do.
Fast forward a couple of months and now the #1 defacto reason alliance rankers dont do AV is because of the map. Then they will straight up ask you why alliance premades and pugs can win AB/WSG like its not a glaring non sequitor and when the answer has been there all along.
My personal favorite was where the map induced apathy and thus depression in alliance AV participants. They were strong enough to queue (instant queues and welfare epics will do that for you I guess) but just too depressed to actually compete in the bg. All they could do is farm horde at SH and SP for honor and rep turn ins before cave afking so they can quickly get into the next game.
Sounds like an excuse to yank my chain but no, more irrefutable map evidence lol.
Back in my day we used to call them worthless honor farmers but now theyre doing the lords work.
After itās been clearly demonstrated itās not, yes.
The win rates in other BGās shows that alliance are not simply worse at pvp and that win rates only go up slightly on AV weekend when the seriously alliance step into AV shows itās not primarily a player attitude issue in AV.
Plus as heās already admitted that the map should be fixed continuing to use this thread as a platform to bash alliance in AV is simply trolling. At least some of the other people are still pretending itās not a map issue.
You mean rankers that include a great many who got such ranks by AFKing in AV?
Weāve seen earlier that things like rezzes are scoffed at, what ācompositionā are you implying would be needed?
Alliance are favored in PVE. If they are not geared, what the hell have they been doing?
I would support the separation of L51-59 and L60 into their own brackets. That said, sub L60s is not exclusive to alliance, and effort is not based on level. Most all AFKers that I gank in AV are L60.
This has been explained over and over and over. Have you actually been reading your thread?
We horde who actually played AV throughout vanilla dealt with alliance dominating the BG. Somehow we managed to not join the BG and simply mill about at a single GY, like most alliance are doing.
many alliance agree that the only reason alliance loses so much is because of bad mentalities. theyāve even posted in this very thread and other av threads, but once again, the echo chamber tries to DISCREDIT THEM, drown them out, and gaslight them.
it is obvious to me that the echo chamberās agenda is that they want to win but they dont want to put forth effort, so rather than working hard to overcome the horde strategy they petition to get the map changed and disingenuosly overexagerate the āhorde advantageā
What is it that makes you ignore the reason for this repeatedly?
Guy who has hundreds of posts in the pre AV threads, strongly arguing for the 1.12 AV version we ended up with, now calling other people trolls. Priceless.
Weāve WELL over 2000 post threads pleading with blizzard to not use 1.12 for a litany of reasons, and you fought tooth and nail against them. Now you have the absolute GALL to act like blizzard should cater to your wishes because you do not like the very version of the BG that you fought/trolled for with such passion.
How ANYONE takes you seriously is beyond me. Much less blizzard, after they saw how you trolled the hell out of anti 1.12 AV players.
And? Still doesnt explain those loss rates. All it says is to me is that the horde can reach SF faster but reaching SF faster doesnt guarantee free AV wins so its not the big hammer you want it to be. AV isnt on a timer either - it goes until one team kills the other teams boss. SF is one tiny part of that and sometimes its flat out optional depending on the game.
One of the comments on that video nailed it: its not hard capped - thats an invitation to pvp.
Now we all know you have an extra 20 seconds to survey the scene and prepare your counterattack - Or do you trickle in 2-3 at a time while your healers are LOS and under siege?
And even then its not really clear why the horde going SF means you have to go SF at the same stage in the game moments apart from each other. Youre choosing to do that knowing the horde is more than like already there (and they are, like 2 of them while the rest harangue alliance trying to run by without a fight).
Like I said, AV is quirky like that. Sometimes the spawn infuriates you and sometimes it puts you at the GY that was seconds away from being ninjaād. The point wasnt for it to make complete sense but for it to have appeal by creating pvp opportunities at dozens of locations around the map.
The alliance have always enjoyed playing the pve race game, classic is no exception. The horde have always been better off turtling so they do in lieu of 2 hour queues and thus the map becomes a real problem for you when the horde commit to defense. Not just any defense either - it has to be somewhat competent - or full of mages.
AV as its currently implemented should be a one to two hour game if both sides got a grip. Queue times have pretty much insured alliance reppers arent gonna be patient team players - its all about efficiency in grinding rep, not winning. Which can be observed all throughout this games history right on through to today and classic. If losing fast is the best hph, thats what happens.
Your faction doesnt share your enthusiasm for AV and the map is probably the least of your problems. Just because you care doesnt mean everyone else does.
So the issue is that the longer the game last the more it favors horde. If alliance hard turtle at SHGY sure they can hold it for awhile, but then it comes down to who summons their guy first. And the horde have an easier summon thanks to their summon location plus the tree guy bugs out most of the time when summoned anyways.
Rankers are such a small fraction of the population that they DO NOT MATTER.
you usually have about double the number of sub 60 chars in any given AV then people rank 11+ and 1 sub 60 is FAR more detrimental than any 1 ranker is beneficial. So no rankers would not account for the map disparity, also if all it took was rankers to queue to get to even a 40% winrate that would be enough hph to make them queue, so no rankers donāt make much difference.
you mean OOC rezzes that require 10 seconds out of combat to get 1 rez off that puts people at next to no health+mana, which is almost impossible to do on a contested flag? Ya sorry we donāt let you make fantasy arguments about how 1 rez will save a team from constant waves of reinforcements from a GY.
Yes they are, which is usually why Alliance tend to be better geared than Horde and yet they still lose.
Have you? because you seem to be unable to comprehend you have never made a SINGLE valid argument that has not been debunked or pointed out how irrelevant it is, and yet you have never once been able to debunk a single actual argument about the mapā¦ seems you are the one that needs to learn to read.
No you did not, because Alliance did not dominate in vanilla, they had a slight advantage because gear disparity was MUCH larger in vanilla because people were bad and alliance had a MUCH easier time gearing up in raids. That combined with the fact that Horde had faster queues and so did not need to play defense and had A LOT of people who were just in AV to herb/fish on the horde. Led to a lot of horde matches thrown, however even then Alliance would still win a decent number of games prob 30-40%.
Take your own advice, this has all been explained to you ad nausem and yet you continue to take a stance that requires the levels of denialism that it takes for someone to call the earth flat. THAT is what makes you a troll, not your position but your refusal to listen to evidence to change that opinion to match reality.
