I shouldn’t have to explain this to you, but horde can tell which direction alliance are going from their position in FoS. If alliance go toward SHB, so do horde. If alliance go to SFGY so do horde.
I’m going to end this discussion here because it’s clear to me your intent is more about belittling players than discussing an actual solution to a problem that has negative consequences to both factions.
30m cd, on the rarest class by far… you really do grasp at straws…
just because you are too dumb to understand basic strategy talk does not mean the horde are everywhere or that it is a fallacy. The horde have no need to play defense till something gets softcapped because softcapping anything in the south does NOTHING, then they can send a small team south to counter it. because reacting to things that are announced the second they happen is easy.
10 people on defense will easily overwhelm a team of 20 alliance on offense if they are anywhere close to similiar geared.
Slightly better gear =/= invincible you troll.
just because you are too dumb to understand that you have been debunked does not mean they were not debunked. EVERY claim you have made is either irrelevant(ram team 7) or debunked(skipping IBGY strat, SPGY is the same as IBGY, alliance winrate in vanilla)
No alliance did not, it was never assumed that you would lose every game as horde, and Blizz has NEVER said what the winrates were in vanilla. So more lies.
Way to go troll you just proved you can do nothing but lie.
AV is a big map, with lots of players and lots going on and lots to do. I dont think the very specific scenario where zerg on zerg pvp favoring the defensive team in their territory being a massive pita for the travelling offensive team requires a ideological fix while we crusade on to utopiaville.
When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it the map is a problem for you because the horde play defense and thats an advantage for the horde because you dont.
The map might be large but not all areas of it are equally relevant(or even equally accessible at all times). SHGY usually ends up being the initial key point on the map unless it actually is a pure zerg. This is because if it gets soft capped before alliance have a southern GY hard capped the game is almost certainly over at that point.
The cave rez makes it a very effective strategy for horde to let IBGY soft cap if it means they soft cap SHGY. Alliance simply do not have an equivalent strat as they have to prevent SHGY from soft capping while getting a hard cap somewhere south. Now sure alliance can hard turtle at SHGY but as I explained that only works until horde summon the ice guy.
So what? Why is this a problem in a massive pvp battleground? Why is it the hordes fault that you think a zerg run down one of the sidelines where horde are looking for you is a terrific strat? Why is it the maps fault that youre trying to race past and theyre not letting you? Why cant you dream up of literally anything else to do?
And Im not trying to belittle you or anyone. I think youre honestly convinced that the maps the problem, I am not attacking that position. I, however, am not convinced. There’s just too many assumptions at work to take it as seriously as you think I should.
When horde were getting their butts handed to them in AV by premades and queues starting stretching to 25-30 min an amazing thing happened. The horde adapted. Some of my best classic moments as of now are wrecking the drek pull and repeatedly wiping premades in the base until they left the bg.
You’re not going to see that from alliance with 3 min queues in an efficiency or bust meta. Thats just how it is.
We have looked at lots of different strats the problem is none of them work against a simple horde defense.
If you would care to share some great strat we would love to hear it, unfortunately NOT 1 person who claims the map is fine has come up with a valid strat to beat an IBGY defense.
THAT is the problem, if the horde opt to defend at IBGY and south they can easily hold with 20 people against a team of 40 on the alliance because they rez 3x as often. THAT is the cause of the map imbalance, which leads to the apathy which is why its a 99% winrate for the horde.
just because you refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that there is no way for a team of alliance to beat even a slightly worse horde team if that team just uses a basic strategy of defend the south.
Now to counter the trolls “arguments” because its all they have. If we cannot beat a defense at IBGY where its just a 3 to 1 rez advantage, if we skip that GY they rez advantage only gets FAR worse, so skipping IBGY is just stupid. And the game does not end at IBGY but if you do not take IBGY you will not be able to mount any kind of push on Drek, however like I said even a much smaller force can easily recapture IBGY which means they need to defense there, then they can cap SHGY with the ice guy because he spawns on the horde side of the FoS over a cliff and out of LoS of the alliance instead of right in front of the Horde GY like Ivus does for the alliance.
So the fact that you are “not convinced” just means you are unable to do basic math and understand that 3 > 1, if you can grasp that simple concept you can understand the map problem.
Horde were NEVER getting there butts handed to them in AV in classic, at the start everyone was using a rush meta which had near a 50/50 winrate because its a straight rush. However alliance were able to premade and send in proper comps with good gear those teams had an advantage which let them have about a 70-90% winrate over pugs which is oddly lower than the premade vs pug winrate you see in AB/WSG… sure there were the top end premades that had a 90% winrate but those were invite only, required good gear, consumables, epic mounts, carrot+riding+spurs, etc they were the 1% of the alliance and using them to justify anything like what is happening now is just ridiculous, it would be like using Bezos to show that everyone is fine economically right now just look at how well he is doing. Also they made changes to vanilla in a matter of weeks to fix that issue with the premading when the winrates were closer to 50% then they were to the current winrates which we have had for MONTHS.
And no the premades were not stopped because of the harm they did to alliance pugs, that was a separate bug which blizz acknowledged and fixed alongside the premade removal, that change without the removal of premades would also have stopped the problem.
But you know, if you had actually read this thread you would know all of this because this has all been said before.
The map does have GY selection issues, but players can adapt to that.
For example dieing at or near the bridge, players can learn where to die to Rez at GY or cave. Many alliance die in spots that Rez them at the cave and don’t even think to use their trinket, many moan and groan about how unfair it is but don’t bother to learn the Rez lines.
Another example is assaulting SFGY if alliance assault it from it’s southern ramp, they can move south when they are about to die and try to hit the Rez line that will put them at SHGY instead of ASGY.
Alliance refusing to adapt is a problem, they are playing AV classic as if the GY logic follows the rules of AV retail. It doesn’t. This contributes to the loss rate that isn’t solely a map issue as the players have options to overcome it.
Alliance having an infestation of rep farm pve simulation players, leeches, afk, and levelers is also not a map issue.
The skill difference outside of AV weekend is also not a map issue, it’s an HPH issue. Premades go elsewhere because they can’t premade AV, this means they would have a 50/50 chance to win with 5 man groups instead of being able to pug stomp for fast easy wins. And the games would be to long to be effective HPH.
There are many other reasons contributing to the 99% loss rate but you want to blame everything on the map, which based on recent AV weekend data (from multiple sources, not just Scot), would only be contributing to a 40/60 win rate, not a 1/99.
You keep trying to exaggerate the map imbalance, if blizzard was to believe your views then horde should have 20 players vs 40 alliance because somehow we end up with 80+horde players every game…
Wow lol. You clearly said not to go to SF if horde are there so I explained to you that wherever we go, there will be horde and wherever we go, IBGY or SFGY, we will have to deal with rez “quirks” that disadvantage alliance and benefit horde. I’m sure you’ll attribute this to apathy and depression too.
You’re definitely here to belittle players who are “too depressed” to compete, apathetic, don’t dismount to fight. None of that has a darn thing to do with quirky gy rez or 20 second headstarts. Until you can put aside the stereotype you’ve placed on alliance players and discuss actual map flaws, there can be no good faith discussion with you on AV map imbalance.
Most alliance players who want to win aren’t coming back to a map where you can massively outplay your opponents and still lose more often than not.
Usually by just saying “I disagree, git gud” and offering no other substantive value… and also as a sub-60 or not even a Classic character. Undermines the point that from experience AV is primarily a player driven problem when people show zero investment in experiencing the BG in question.
Does nothing, and yet also does something.
Behold, the very ad homs that makes blizzard ignore these threads.
Stating facts is not ad hominem…
you are a troll.
you continually misinterpret things because you either don’t understand basic concepts or your pretend you do not.(dumb)
you do nothing but lie.
for it to be ad hom you would need to make an argument that I can ignore but you have yet to do that.
A new level of irony has been unlocked
Do yourself a favor, don’t bother debating semantics with him.
He is trolling this topic, he’s already admitted he knows the map is an issue that should be fixed.
The map is not the issue. The rez points are.
But hey, it’s just just yet another example of you misrepresenting what people actually post
Just ignore and move on. Once you’ve tried to debate and it keeps going in circles there’s little point in continuing.
You mean something like this?
Or this?
Don’t bother, let him learn the hard way his wins were not because of his brilliant strategy(which he still refuses to explain) but rather he just got good team RNG a few times.
you posted 23m games with a few alliance players having 10+ kills
so it was a race and a few alliance stayed back on D, or some alliance killed the Horde D.
neat
this is nothing like the game I posted. The game I posted had horde players going 45-1, 30-1, 20±1 And ofc Zlryus jumps on the ban wagon. Doesn’t make any sense but fits his narrative.
look i’m on your side
Blizzard change the map
I just really doubt it will happen, and think Alliance should suck it up a bit, or go play something else until when/if they do change the map.
crowfall looking pretty lit rn