Arthas is damned because of the choices he made during a bad situation. The Plague, Scourge, and Mal’Ganis do not give Arthas an excuse for his choices, regardless of that he would not have to have made those choices if they had not been around.
We have more evidence of that in Shadowlands, as we see there are Forsaken Souls, very clearly altered by undeath, in Bastion, and presumably could also have been sent to other afterlives as well.
Sylvanas deserved to go to the Maw for the choices she made once she was in control of her actions again. To note, Sylvanas always had freedom in her mind, just not over the puppet strings the Lich King had over like a marionette.
Most disturbing, what Sylvanas chose was to become more like Arthas over the years.
Quite the opposite. I condemn Sylvanas for the same reasons I condemn Arthas.
All im saying is that the circumstances that ended with arthas damning himself were on a smaller timeframe and thus he had less chances to turn around, i am not excusing him.
If people are making the argument that undeath makes you become something like Arthas then…
Does that mean the living were right to find them as nothing more than monsters?
I mean Undeath makes you a genocidal maniac so… destroy all undead and forsaken then?
Because I thought the argument until now was that forsaken were no different than when they were alive.
So the living should have accepted them rather than reject them.
Thats a mighty big ask when you are saying undeath makes you become such a monster like Sylvanas or Arthas.
You might say “well not all of them” ok… but how would anyone know?
How would anyone know that after accepting them in they wont start planning to killing everyone?
Much like Sylvanas, Arthas also spent years further damning himself once he was free of the Lich King before him. Even before eliminating Ner’zhul, Arthas used the same excuse as Sylvanas for raising even more undead:
His Scourge would cleanse the land of the living. He stood straddling the worlds; he was alive after a fashion, but the Lich King’s soft whispers were calling him death knight, and the leeching of color from his hair and skin and eyes seemed to indicate that it was more than a title. He did not know; he did not care. He was the Lich King’s favored, and the Scourge was his to command, and in a strange, twisted way, he found that he cared for them.
“The ritual that Arthas used to turn Sylvanas into a banshee involved tearing her soul out of her still living body. It infinitely prolonged her existence as a creature filled with hate toward all life” -UVG
IIRC the hate is also backed by a few quote from the novel Arthas .
I’m gonna paraphrase the next quote because its done in sequential frame in the Ghostlands trilogy:
He took her ravaged body and cast unholy spells upon it! Creating from what had once been good a thing of evil! He twisted the soul of Sylvanas Windrunner and turned her into the banshee she is now
3rdly Undeath in general is like a box of chocolate. Do you want quotes for that too?
4thly shouldn’t your “how would anyone know” apply to any race any person?
When you are talking about a race where the lore says they have or could have gone crazy then not really.
You either stay the same as before or you are worse.
If people are arguing that Sylvanas getting turned undead by Arthas is the same as Arthas taking up the cursed sword designed to make him a tool then…
Obviously Forsaken are a danger.
How would anyone know they wont just snap and kill everyone they know like Sylvanas and Arthas?
Seems like the argument about the living rejecting the undead was the safest course of action?
Would would willingly put themselves in that situation knowing Undeath can destroy your mind so utterly that you could become a murdering maniac?
Exactly. Its why I want Tyrande or Summermoon to kill her. Because right now the message seems to be that Tyrande is wrong for wanting justice for her people who were so horribly wronged by Sylvanas are parts of the Horde.
I understand why some people dislike the implications of Sylvanas suffering again at the hands of Arthas, but right now punishing victims is an established trend Blizzard seems to be okay with.
On that part he had no soul already, by then he was already damned, his will wasnt his own, i already explained my views on the diferences of arthas’ case vs sylvanas’ case, besides my main point is that his road to damnation was more like a quick shower vs sylvanas long bubble bath.
She definitively had more chances to turn ship on her undeath than he had when he was alive.
Just to be clear, I for one have never thought that Arthas and Sylvanas are the same in that respect.
I 100% agree with that especially after the fall of Lordaeron. Alexandros and Co had a reasonable reaction considering the timeframe. The undead also had a reasonable reaction considering the timeframe.
Apparently Arthas lmao. Wasn’t the quote something along the lines of “I will gladly take on any curse to save my people” He saved them in a twilight zone type of way lol.
In any case Arthas was evil way before he turned undead.
Getting so many interpretations of Arthas and Undead.
Where did all the forsaken go that screamed it was bigotry to not embrace the forsaken?
I got to admit I always viewed Arthas a victim. He was way out of his depth and the end got played like a fiddle.
By trying to save his kingdom he destroyed.
Arthas was a good guy that got his soul stolen and got turned against his people, against his will. And his soul and will remained not his own, until his dying day.
Sylvanas was a good girl that got her soul stolen and got turned against her people, against her will. However, after a short time, she was freed by luck, and was able to choose her own path. And she chose to follow in the footsteps of the person who had originally stolen her freedom.
Arthas and Sylvanas are not the same. Arthas was a victim for the rest of his existence. Sylvanas chose to become a culprit, after being a victim, once upon a time. She knew what it was like, and still chose to force others to suffer the same fate.
I think the views get muddled, and to be frank, I’ve been around a while and can’t remember anyone ever saying it was bigotry to not embrace the Forsaken.
I believe that the Forsaken are victims for the most part and I can understand why they are shunned. At the same time I think the best thing the living could do for the Forsaken is to work on finding a cure.
I could understand how accepting the Forsaken may be easier to do after they’ve helped saved Azeroth and the Horde several times, but at the end of the day they are cursed. Its not like the Worgen Curse which was cured 2 or 3 times over in the starting zone alone, the Curse of Undeath seems to be a bit severe to say the least.
The fact that the OP hasn’t responded since the start of this thread makes me think it probably was intended to get us all arguing. In which case, congrats, OP.
Ya’ll now I’m here for this type of discussion anytime anyplace, even though I’ve spent less time involved in the lore.
I mean outside of a bunch of SL unknowns and datamined placeholders there hasn’t been much to discuss in a while.
Ultimately, simply putting Arthas and Sylvanas name in a title of any thread will get you more than hits than not. They are arguably 2 of the most famous and well known charters to date. I’m positive that Sylvanas is the most talked about/popular character on these forums.
She just so awesome(sorry had to throw that last part in there for all time sake)
Q: Can you please explain how “light” works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one’s own ability to do it. That’s why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmorne).
Emphasis on the bolded, which is a stark difference between the two.
He was a egotistical brat… his actions always smacked of someone who felt they were ‘special’ and knew better then everyone else…
Even his stance about “i will do anything to save my people” felt hollow and more of a lie he was telling himself because he didn’t want to admit -why- he wanted to stop the creature who had shown him up time and again and kept making a fool of him.
I feel i should add, THAT also made him such a compelling villain to me, he was a anti-hero who took one step too far. (Doing the right things for the wrong reasons… and then beyond)
