"Are we the baddies?" Self-awareness of the Horde?

[Orlok-sentinels]

Even more controversial opinion: I like Corn Beef Hash more than bacon.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

That’s nothing.

Ahem

Scrapple is one of the best breakfast meat options.

[Orlok-sentinels]

You heretic. Spam is the superior choice.

[Zullamia-dalaran (Zullamia)]

I also enjoy lox and cream cheese with bagels. Yum.

[Raelän-wyrmrest-accord]

Waffle house. Two waffles, a biscuit with gravy, and orange juice.

Best breakfast there is.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

Ok, I modify my answer to best non-seafood based breakfast meat.

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

I am actually really pissed that Blizz essentially hid Teldrassil under a rug, instead of facing the consequences of it.

Hell, if they had actually TRIED to reinforce the “fear of the alternative” of this story (while still having the Horde reps despising Teldrassil, but being too worried about the Alliance’s justified retribution to act against Sylvanas) … BfA “MIGHT” have worked a bit better

The only way that would be better would be in terms of storytelling technique. It would not be any more pleasant to play through.

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

I am actually really pissed that Blizz essentially hid Teldrassil under a rug, instead of facing the consequences of it.

Hell, if they had actually TRIED to reinforce the “fear of the alternative” of this story (while still having the Horde reps despising Teldrassil, but being too worried about the Alliance’s justified retribution to act against Sylvanas) … BfA “MIGHT” have worked a bit better

The only way that would be better would be in terms of storytelling technique. It would not be any more pleasant to play through.

Well, at least in terms of storytelling technique then … which IS an improvement. The Horde would be portrayed from the offset as her victims too (if nothing else because she cornered them with the Burning to ensure her authority over them), rather than what I suspect is coming later … with her being the Shepherd leading her Blind Sheep off a cliff.

Either Blizz will validate Sylvanas and invalidate everyone opposed to her; or they will need a pretty catastrophic method to distance her from the Horde (and to do that the most forceful way is to make THEM the Victims of her machinations too).

[Lannan-silver-hand]

However the Writers Basically ignore all that context and wrote the Horde as bad guys again and the alliance as the plucky forgiving good guys. its why BFA is the stupidest expansion to come out yet as the story premise makes no sense based on the established lore.

Strangely, I think I have realize WHY Blizzard “likes” writing Horde. Its not the internal drama, the diverse cultures, the attempts at re-invention/redemption, its that they like using the Horde a plot-device. The Horde merely is a proactive force to move the plot THEY want to write along; while the Alliance is a reactive force meant to interact with that plot. This gives the Horde Faction the illusion of agency (while it steals agency away from the Alliance), but its still just an illusion.

I’ve thought the same thing. Also, I think they make a show of “liking” the Horde as a way to try to distract people from what they keep doing to it and it’s themes.

[Mernna-moon-guard]

Have we seen any sort of moral conflict within the Horde like this?

The resurrection of Derek Proudmoore. Valtrois was reminded of the Burning Legion because of what Sylvanas did, Talanji outright admits to being reminded of Zul by it, and caused Baine and Zelling to liberate Derek and return him to Jaina.

This is why I was so shocked horde players weren’t up in arms about Lor’themar’s line about how Sylvanas has the support of the horde. That one line by itself did more damage to the horde’s morality than the burning of Teldrassil.

If the horde had burned down Teldrassil and felt bad about it as a whole? Moral integrity intact. If they never said anything about it at all, we could at least assume they didn’t really support it. Moral integrity up in the air but possibly intact. But saying they outright supported it? pft, horde is evil peoples.

[Imerus-moon-guard (Imerus)]

This is why I was so shocked horde players weren’t up in arms about Lor’themar’s line about how Sylvanas has the support of the horde.

It seemed like there was a fair amount of people taking issue with it. Just that it was a bit harder for some to notice. But I have definitely seen people not happy about it.

[anon10937298]

I’d like eggs more if I had a near unlimited alotment of them. they don’t feel terribly filling.

I suggest taking a red potato (maybe two), dicing it up finely and frying it in some butter. After some minutes have passed, throw in some diced onion and garlic. Let that cook a bit, THEN start your bacon and eggs.
Fry the bacon and get the scrambled eggs (I usually go with four eggs + two tablespoons of butter) going. You can reduce heat on the potato & onions while the eggs cook. Make sure you keep stirring the eggs, so they stay nice and fluffy. When the eggs are just shy of being done, you can mix in the potato & onions along with cheese and any extra seasonings you may favor (always be sure to add any salt to your eggs towards the end of the cooking process). Give it a good stir so that the flavors can come together, then serve the scramble alongside the fried bacon.
Very filling! Very taste! Altogether a good way to start your day. You can use the bacon as a sort of spoon to help get the scramble onto your fork.

Or you can go pure bodybuilder and just chug a dozen raw egg yolks.

[Alamarius-silvermoon (Alamarius)]

Why dont we ever talk about how Tyrande abandoned her people on that tree to burn to death just to save her little Husband. Also I’m not sure Sylvanas can be held responsible for her actions any more than a insane person can be. She is undead, being undead twists your mind and your morality. She isnt the same person she was when she was alive. An insane person, or Sociopath technically cannot be evil because they do not understand the concepts of good and evil, they are amoral. This is how undead are.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Why dont we ever talk about how Tyrande abandoned her people on that tree to burn to death just to save her little Husband.

Because Tyrande went to help Malfurion so that more Night Elves could be saved after, as per Elegy:

Tyrande emerged into turmoil.


Night elves were pressed in tight lines, waiting to escape the city through the portals—the only means available. The magi operating them looked exhausted, their arms trembling as they kept the gateways open. Priestesses, every bit as weary, tried to shepherd the throngs through in an orderly manner. Several kaldorei crowded the moonwell, praying to Elune for safety.

Children, sensitive to the anxiety of their elders, were weeping, and their parents clutched them close.

A cheer went up as all recognized their high priestess.

“Lady Tyrande!” a night elf woman cried, trying to push through the crowd.

“High Priestess!” someone else shouted.

“What is happening?”

The voice was human, and the speaker stepped beside her after shouldering her way through the crowd. Tyrande looked down at Mia Greymane. The queen’s expression was stoic, but her eyes were wide, and she trembled ever so slightly. The high priestess bent to listen to her words. “We hear that the Horde has destroyed the wisps, that the Sentinels are all dead, and that the Horde approaches with arcane fire to burn the World Tree.”

“None of those are true,” Tyrande said. “But . . . the Horde is coming.” She paused, wishing she need not utter the awful words. “And they will take Darnassus.”

Mia took a sharp breath, then squared her shoulders and nodded. “Are you here to help with the evacuations?”

“I cannot,” and Tyrande’s voice broke as her eyes swept the scene. “Malfurion goes to fight Sylvanas. I must aid him. If he wins that battle, the Horde will suffer a severe blow to their morale. They could even become disorganized for a time, which could allow more of our citizens to escape.” She paused. “You should return to your own husband, Queen Mia. He is so worried.”

Mia shook her head. “Not yet. I’m just a few steps from a portal,” she said. “It’ll do Genn good to practice patience for a little longer. Go. I’ll continue working with the priestesses to keep the lines moving and everyone calm.”

Then Queen Mia hopped onto the wall of the moonwell.

“Citizens of Darnassus! Honor your high priestess! She goes to join Malfurion Stormrage in battle!”

The throngs fell silent, and a pathway was cleared.

Moved, Tyrande lifted her arms and asked Elune’s blessing upon them. Her people needed hope and courage and strength if they were to take up the burden that would soon be placed upon them. “Oh, my people . . . we are not alone,” she cried.

“Malfurion and I will do all we can so that as many of you as possible will be safe. For those who must remain, do not fear! If Teldrassil does fall to the Horde, the Alliance will come hard on their heels. We have friends. And we have our will. We are kaldorei!”

They cheered her as she passed. She knew her words were not enough. But it was all she could do—for now.

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

Have we seen any sort of moral conflict within the Horde like this?

The resurrection of Derek Proudmoore. Valtrois was reminded of the Burning Legion because of what Sylvanas did, Talanji outright admits to being reminded of Zul by it, and caused Baine and Zelling to liberate Derek and return him to Jaina.

This is why I was so shocked horde players weren’t up in arms about Lor’themar’s line about how Sylvanas has the support of the horde. That one line by itself did more damage to the horde’s morality than the burning of Teldrassil.

Well its not that we aren’t upset, and its more a reality that we expect that line (in some way) to have relevance to Sylvie’s story; and we’ve all grown rather apathetic about that topic by now. The Horde FACTION is a plot device, used as a proactive force to push forward whatever story Blizzard seems to be writing (its not the first time they’ve done this). What is good for the Faction Identity seems to be at the very least secondary to the tale they are trying to weave here.

Personally, I expect Thrall’s implication that she has the loyalty of the people; and Lor’themar’s concern that even his own people will not support his choice to join Thrall and Saurfang to be merely another sign pointing to Sylvie being Ogmot’s Laughing Shepherd. She led her blind-sheep off a cliff in this war, even as they go splat, splat, splat against the rocks … they never doubted her. The Sylvie foot IS likely going to come down on the Horde HARD, just how and when is the question.

[Yenna-moon-guard]

Problem is, even when Sylvanas comes down on the horde it won’t change that they fully supported her at things like Teldrassil and Brennadam.

That singular line from Lor’themar is also why Pheandra is correct in this topic by default. As a result of that line the default assumption against horde characters now is that they supported Sylvanas at Teldrassil and Brennadam unless they specifically state otherwise. This is why Baine, Saurfang, and Thrall refusing to state it directly looks so bad.

Before this line horde characters would still have to directly state their distaste of Teldrassil, but at least back then we could assume some did, even if it was a bad faith argument as it wasn’t explicitly stated otherwise. That, however has changed.

Like the rebellion refusing to outright state Teldrassil is wrong is a lot like when President Johnson back during reconstruction refused to state inequality was wrong. Some can assume he thinks it is but it’d be a bad faith argument as complacency is complicity and he was making moves that supported the south (similar to how every horde leader continued to support sylvie ). That is to say, its on individual horde members/President Johnson to self-reflect and denounce the horde’s actions/South’s racism themselves. (In the case of President Johnson he later came out as an explicit racist.)

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

And there in lies the problem.

The Horde is a plot-device. Its needs as a Faction are not as important as its use to be a proactive force to propel the story that Blizzard wished to tell; and the story Blizzard clearly wishes to tell has something to do with Sylvanas’ true objectives. So, since it would be inconvenient for the Horde that SHOULD have turned against her for Teldrassil, to turn against her too early; they were forced to sit on their hands until it WAS convenient for them to do so.

Honestly … Blizzard has done so much damage to the Red Faction’s Identity, I don’t think it could ever be repaired. They’ve destroyed it to propel forward the narrative a single character that never at any point in her history represented the Horde (or even her own people) very well. I am honestly shocked that the writing team could do something this monstrous and still have the gall to claim they like writing the Horde (especially after they made us all but irrelevant last expansion).

[Hardwire-velen (Hardwire)]

Why dont we ever talk about how Tyrande abandoned her people on that tree to burn to death just to save her little Husband.

Did you ever actually suggest something Tyrande could have DONE in Teldrassil to assist the evacuation? Or is this some sort of weird moral “Well, she should have been there, even if she was functionally useless in the evacuation because she’s not a mage”?

[Gornur-nerzhul (Gornur)]

This is why I was so shocked horde players weren’t up in arms about Lor’themar’s line about how Sylvanas has the support of the horde.

I can’t speak for others but I’m not up in arms because I’m more confused and bit resigned than angry at the line. It’s a by product of just feeling that Blizzard is being lazy. I’ve said this before but when Garrosh was made Warchief Blizzard went out of there to make him a larger than life figure to the point that when he had loyalists in the end it made sense. You didn’t have to agree with it but there was a logical reason behind it.

Where as Sylvanas has the loyalty of the people because Blizzard has Lor’themar said so. There’s no real effort to show why someone would be loyal to Sylvanas over the likes of Lor’themar, Baine, etc… It’s just feels like lazy writing with this repeat of Mists which caused a number of players to just regard it with a sense of apathy or resignation.

The initial anger was just swept away by wondering when the train wreck will be over and we can move on towards the next expansion.

[Dunadriel-wyrmrest-accord]

This is why I was so shocked horde players weren’t up in arms about Lor’themar’s line about how Sylvanas has the support of the horde. That one line by itself did more damage to the horde’s morality than the burning of Teldrassil.

We’re pretty miserable, man. I don’t want to speak for all Horde players, but I’m too burnt out to hate individual story beats anymore. I’m just laying back and thinking of Mulgore at this point.