Facts don’t matter to you. Nuance doesn’t work with you. You have started with a conclusion and worked your way back haphazardly to justify it. As such, you’ve created a dichotomy where the conclusion cannot be wrong (just the facts supporting it can) … and these threads you create are just a way for you create an echo chamber for yourself. As for Baine … here:
"I cannot abide this. Each time I think Sylvanas has gone too far, she finds a new line to cross. I have watched her commit one dishonorable act after another.
She desecrates more than the memory of a fallen enemy. She desecrates the Horde itself.
This cannot stand. Something must be done. And soon."
And as for his reasons for releasing Derek, think he was pretty clear with Jaina.
“The Horde has a sickness in it. We wagewar while the EarthMother dies. We have forgotten what truly matters … No Life is worth living if we cannot be true to our nature.”
Seems to me the guy finally just had enough. While its far from truly altruistic, few of the acts of ANY race in this game are. He recognizes with worthlessness of this war; recognizes the TAUREN are focusing on this pointless conflict, rather than attempting to try to aid their literal patron Deity; and yes, does recognize what Derek represents (an OPEN utter betrayal of the core tenant of Forsaken Free Will). Though tbh, she’s never really been bound by the last rule (she’s just never been so open about not giving a crap about it before).
Facts do matter and this nuance you keep talking about is shattered the moment the Horde stands side by side with their supreme leader as he or she does evil again, and again and wait for it… again.
Well you could have certainly posted this much earlier than after 183 posts.
So what he says to Sylvanas doesn’t count?
And what is this true nature? Could you be any more vague?
And yet he seems to not utter the word Teldrassil once.
I mean look the Horde is no stranger to wiping out races, they did it in Dreanor on a planetary level, did it again with SW humans… the ones that failed to run away and now Night Elves.
This is beyond “Oh its just a wasteful war” it is far, far beyond that. It may have started as a worthless war but after Teldrassil it became so, so much more than that.
Or do you disagree with that? Because all the Horde seems to do is to minimize it.
Like it or not the Horde has every bit as handicapped in this story as the Alliance is. Neither we or our characters have any more agency than you Alliance folks do.
While a debate can be made for the War of Thornes as an independent act … bluntly, the Tauren & Blood Elves should have been ALLOWED to turn against her after Teldrassil (the first because of the horrific act it was; the second because of how much Sylvie just turned the BEs into her own personal scourge in a beat-for-beat repeat of the “Fall of Quel’thalas against another people”). However, them doing so would have been inconvenient for the story that Blizzard wants to tell; so these leaders were forced to sit on their hands until it was convenient for them to finally side against her (or those leaders were just absent like Rommath; Hamuul; or Muln).
Blizzard has also done a remarkably bad job trying to sell the “Fear of the Alternative” angle they have teased several times; which was supposed to be part of how Sylvie was maintaining control. Essentially, the concept was that the Horde was so terrified of what the Alliance would do to them due to what they percieve as a perfectly valid lust for vengance, they wont move against Sylvie. Lor’themar, Voss, Eitrigg, and Garona all state something to this effect at certain points in BfA). Rokhan and Rexxar in contrast state they are so worried about the Alliance and this War their priorities are there for the moment. Its an immensely poorly portrayed motivation.
I never said they did.
I am pointing out how ridiculous it is to paint Baine as this figure that cleanses of all Horde’s actions so far as you seem to.
Not at all. Not sure when I ever said that. I’m just saying that one does need to look at the meta needs of the narrative to some extent when looking at the Horde’s actions. I am actually really pissed that Blizz essentially hid Teldrassil under a rug, instead of facing the consequences of it.
Hell, if they had actually TRIED to reinforce the “fear of the alternative” of this story (while still having the Horde reps despising Teldrassil, but being too worried about the Alliance’s justified retribution to act against Sylvanas) … BfA “MIGHT” have worked a bit better (instead that theme is really poorly executed, inconsistent, and NEVER at the forefront).
Seriously, guys, it’s not worth it. Pheandra hates the Horde, hates you, and is utterly uninterested in any evidence that will shift them away from that emotional stance. This entire thread, like every Pheandra thread, is just another attempt to pour acid directly into your eyes for liking a video game faction that Pheandra doesn’t.
The what was the Baine angle and nuance you were arguing for earlier.
Baine was quite frank on his reasoning for freeing Derek and it had nothing to do trying to mend what has been done so far. It doesn’t excuse anything, it doesn’t redeem anything and Horde players hate it so much that some argue that Baine has now joined the Alliance.
It is all laughable really. All Baine did was save a forsaken and who is that supposed to please? The Alliance player? The Horde player?
How does it even work within the context of the thread that asks a simple question. Where the hell is this honorable horde people keep talking about.
Is the little kid in valley of heroes it? Thats your guy? That’s silver bullet vindicating and redeeming the Horde?
You’re inability to see nuance does not mean it ceases to exist.
Also, conceptions of honor are extremely subjective … as is altruism it seems (based on the debates I’ve seen on that subject in this thread). I could see Horde Honor occurring from the BEs in Surumar; or with the Unshackled; or Eitriggs bargaining with a Bronze Dragon to save a peoples on the brink of extinction in another world; or perhaps simply aiding a princess in a crumbling nation.
One could even state that (even if only for self-preservation) the Horde aiding in the destruction of the Nightmare; Illidan; the Naga; Staghelm (problems partially created by the NEs); the Eradar; the Lich King (problems partially created by the Draenei) could have a tinge of altruism (we helped clean up YOUR messes Alliance races (that cost us greatly), how altruistic of us).
Also … TRUE Altrism (truly selfless action) is a rarity, especially on grand scales. Everyone has their motives, rewards, biases, and incentives to act a certain way (altruistic or otherwise). Even the actions of the Alliance races wouldn’t hold up well under such scrutiny (no-one, not even the Draenei or NEs are THAT selfless and perfect).
Yeah, maybe I am blind to this nuance you keep bringing up.
Because in those three paragraphs never did you make a case that anyone on the Horde is remorseful for what they have done.
They aren’t remorseful. They just don’t care and so this whole idea of Alliance and Horde races working together simply doesn’t work because the first chance the Horde gets they will attack the Alliance race in question.
They will try until they finally succeed.
Thrall’s question to Jaina rings true. We have been at this again and again. What’s different?
The answer is nothing. Nothing is different.
This Horde is no different than the WoD Horde or the first Horde (In action).
Simply stating “we are” changes nothing conceptually. It shows nothing about moving forward.
Based on some of the Horde posters here I think Blizzard pictured the Horde perfectly. They are giving the Horde fans exactly what they want.
At least some of them anyway.
Remorseful … well with Blizzard hiding Teldrassil under a rug as something ugly and inconvenient its hard for ANY character to really have a reaction to it it seems (hell they seem adamant to even hide the NEs themselves right along with it). Outside of that … I wouldn’t be too shocked if there was less remorse about Teldrassil within the general Horde populous.
When Blizzard goes out of its way to show the lethality of a NE Baker in “A Good War” (where they ALSO can fight off 8 Horde Soldiers on their own), and with ONLY Sylvie knowing the reason she burned the Tree (even Saurfang for a moment though it might be due to the NEs having no plan to surrender) … it may be seen as something akin to the US use of the Atom Bomb on Japan within the public eye (but thats pure conjecture I’ll admit, but nationalism is a powerful force).
On the other hand … there are few species in this setting that have more blood on their hands than the Eradar; and I’ve NEVER seen a Kaldorei feel even an ounce of remorse for their once great Empire (that even the NEs enjoyed until Azshara went crazy) built upon the corpses of untold numbers of Trolls (and thats not even including the 80 percent of the population of the world that likely died with the 80 percent of the World’s landmass they blew up to stop THEIR queen).
On the flip side … I think the first time cononically the Goblin race has participated in a major military action against another group that WEREN’T other Goblins was in Cata. They have shockingly little blood on their hands, yet because of their VERY young culture being dirty and destructive (only dating back 100 years) I’ve seen more people uphold them as an EVIL race than many others. This is especially weird when they compare them to NE and Dreanei society.
