I kind of have to agree here.
I’m not saying the Jailer is the good guy. I don’t think he is. I actually think he’s a comically generic evil villain, that is also cosmically powerful, but somehow we’re fighting against him.
But I have to say, in-game, I really don’t trust/like the Eternal Ones (in as much as we’ve seen them):
- The Primus left a warning that was cryptic and relatively useless. “We punished Zovaal for his betrayal,” but don’t worry about what he did, it was really bad. “I worry he had ancient allies and will seek even more allies,” but I have no idea who they are, so let’s just assume all the other Eternal Ones are on our side. “Do not let Zovaal reach the sepulcher,” I guess you’ll know where that is. “The Arbiter is the final key,” as is Draka. Also I know how to craft weapons that could bring about some serious evil, so if I’m gone it’s probably pretty bad. Oh, why did I learn how to create these things? You know, reasons, and stuff. Maldraxxus will defend!
- Sire Denathrius’ character has some great voice acting and I love the character. I really didn’t think I’d like the Venthyr covenant, but there’s enough madness and fun that I’ve really enjoyed it. Conceptually though, Revendreth (both as an extension of Sire and even without his presence) is basically an anima-generating facility feeding off guilt that people feel for their actions. Then tie-in the Nathrezim somehow (their invasion log book located in Sinfall) and the entirety of the existence of this realm is pretty suspect.
- The Archon is such a generic “good” character it seems pretty awful. She’s a giant winged blue character reminiscent of an angel. Then you find out they mind wipe everyone and the place seems like a giant cult. Also they had at least one warning about the whole “Mourne blade escaping the Shadowlands and killing folks” and basically just ignored it. The storyline comes across so poorly that I thought the revolution of the Forsworn was actually going to end up being the good guys - then the only reason they aren’t is because they’re really the Mawsworn and want to sacrifice folks we know. Forget about the fact that many of them likely didn’t sign up for that (or know about it). Then after thinking about it for a moment, realize that the Kyrian are still collecting souls from the universe - they’re just dropping them off at the disabled Arbiter and watching her default setting of “Maw” kick in, sending the souls to torture, torment, and to empower the Jailer. During this whole time they wonder how and why the Maw continues to grow in power. Are they just the lowest of the low intelligence group? As if that wasn’t enough, Anduin shows up and the Archon immediately grants him audience - but when we showed up and begged to give her urgent news she basically told us to go do chores.
- The Winter Queen is in the Shadowlands and her main job is to use the anima they’ve so painstakingly wrung from … whatever … to bring things back to life. Wait, why are you in the realm of “Death” if you’re just there to bring things back to life? I get it, Hakuna Matata and circle of life, but it seems like her loyalties are more than a little bit divided. In the first part of 9.1, not only is she not carrying her sigil on her (as the Archon did) but she chooses to save the wildseeds instead of protecting the sigil that could possibly spell certain doom for the Shadowlands. Good thing she has access to the Emerald Dream and could probably pop on over to the Life side of things when the Shadowlands implode. That’s not even getting into the fact that her loyal servants are these horrifying moth abominations and more than willing to commit suicide for her and also destroy good creatures to nurture blatantly evil ones.
- I’m honestly not even sure whether the Arbiter is an actual being or a machine but that causes some serious philosophical questions about life, etc. I’ll avoid that for now. Why is her default setting when disabled set to send every soul to the Maw? Why are the entire group of servants at her little tower brainwashed into just accepting, unquestioningly, everything that happens as part of the “Purpose” exemplifying a complete lack of understanding the concept of free will. The only exception to their brainwashing is to vaguely understand the Jailer is bad, but even then, if he’s growing in power it must be the “Purpose.”
I get the core concept. Zovaal bad. Zovaal tortures. Zovaal grinds souls to ash. I’m not disputing that in any way. All I can say is that every one of the leading “good guys” in Shadowlands seem to fall somewhere between mustache-twirling evil to comically stupid.
Except Theotar & co. They’re basically the only ones in Shadowlands I feel like I can trust. The freaking Mad Hatter knock-off, his gimp, and two of the three stooges are the only ones I feel are trustworthy.
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Both Zorvall AND the Eternal ones can be bad. We don’t have to pick a side.
With Bastion at least it seems like the Foresworn were justified in thier rebellion and the Mawsworn were exploiting that valid dissent to involuntarily create more Mawsworn, but that still doesn’t negate that Bastion was flawed enough for the Foresworn to rebel.
It’s a lose lose, or a no win scenario. Unless the whole system is torn down and rebuilt with new parameters.
I agree with that conceptually. Obviously I think the entire staff at WoW’s House of Death is either inept or evil.
But then what exactly are we here fighting for? I’m really not motivated to win this fight.
Yeah, Zovaal’s bad. But the rest of these folks are really sketchy too.
I get that he supposedly poses an existential threat to the universe. Not entirely sure what, but we can just go with “it is probably the end of everything.”
But honestly? I feel like the way to actually win is to… you know… wait until he’s in the process of starting that giant doomsday device… then push a few of these folks in there… then save existence.
Afterward we can return victorious and say, “Oh, they all died saving the universe and trying to make things better. Remember their sacrifices. Do better or this might happen again and we’ll have to come back here.”
That’s a little bit demotivating when it comes to my murder hobo-ing. Ah, who am I kidding, my wardrobe needs upgrades.
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I think due to the pandemic as well as other unforseen events it seems like there was supposed to be more, but it was either cut or postponed?
More cinematics and lore to explain why we should care about the Shadowlands. I agree there’s not enough at the moment to keep us invested.
Maybe it’s just me…but those saying the Winter Queen is evil come off as not really having a firm grasp on how the nature of her realm even works. She doesn’t pick evil wild gods over good ones. It’s more a sacrifice these beings to save the greater good, or let EVERYONE die. It’s a tough choice she’s had to make countless times now.
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That’s how the story is presented, but when you play through Adrenweald, there’s no order to anything.
There’s only we must protect Ardenweald or the Queen dies. Meanwhile we kill good spirits and reincarnate world killing Wild Gods, the denizens of Ardenweald are just anima resources.
They are not souls, they are resources, that are used to only resurrect gods.
Mortals are insignificant.
The only reason why she chose to spare Vol’jin was because he has Rezan’s soul inside him. It’s not Vol’jin she’s saving it’s Rezan, reluctantly.
This goes way beyond my siding with Sylvanas, it’s an added layer that Sylvanas also sees the problem. I think it’s intentional, they, the writers, want us to see that Shadowlands as unfair and broken, but as someone with your own agency you don’t have to agree with anything Blizzard writes. I respect that.
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I don’t think the Eternals are meant to be “good”. They are ideologically supposed to represent the Functional purpose that their individual afterlives represent. Its their job. Its sort of mechanical. But even if they have that sort of “grey” capacity (and they sure as hell are keeping secrets), I highly doubt they are in any way worse than the guy who literally uses Mortal Souls as a processed resource to manufacture his weapons.
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We also saved countless good ones. But, and no offense, but it comes off as really disingenuous when you say the Winter Queen is evil. Cold? Sure, she’s has to be. But she isn’t evil.
I get you love Sylvanas and all…but you have to understand she doesn’t care about anyone. She got rid of Nathanos the moment he stopped being useful to her. Why do you think she cares about you or the other loyalists? You’re just a tool she’s using to prevent her damned soul from going to the maw
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I never said she’s evil, if I did that’s my mistake.
I said she cannot be trusted. There’s a difference. My point was there’s valid suspicion in the Winter Queen. She’s not lawfully good.
I trust her over Sylvanas. One actually cares about her subjects.(Hint it’s not Sylvanas) and to the other, you’re just a tool and the moment you’re no longer useful, she’ll discard you
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I don’t agree, but we can agree to disagree.
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And that’s fair. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions 
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I have a question about words if someone could help.
When we (myself included) talk about “justifying” - is it a reference to agreeing with the decision made? Or defining a reasonable/rational basis for making decisions (regardless of whether we agree or think it is utterly stupid)?
As an example, I believe that there is a somewhat logical/reasonable/rational basis for Arthas making some of the decisions he made (pre-Frostmourne). I don’t necessarily agree with the decisions, but I can see how he reached the choice and while the end result was awful, I’m not sure I’d be willing to condemn him for every one of them. Post-Frostmourne is a different story (I know he still made the choices, I’m just using it as a delineation for this question).
I’m not sure if that’s me saying they are “justifiable” or if there is a more appropriate term for it.
I would say I feel likewise about Sargeras. His “justification” (sorry) was that the void taking over the universe would be worse than removing all life and hoping it would rise again. I think his choice is poor and probably not that intelligent, though we’re talking about a cosmic power so he has more information available than I do. I don’t know what a “void” universe is, but I’m also a bit skeptical that he does either.
To contrast that, I don’t feel even remotely similar regarding Gul’dan. I understand the path that led to him becoming Gul’dan, but I don’t see him as desiring anything but destruction and chaos for the sake of destruction and chaos. That doesn’t make him a horrible villain - sometimes you need a crazy villain - but I don’t see his choices as having any sort of reason behind them that could possibly be construed as justified (ugh).
Any suggestions on word choice?
//I really can’t say entirely with certainty regarding Sylvanas because a lot of it depends on how they display the remainder of the story.
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My own PoV is this. As long as I can rationalize the reasons behind why they did what they did, I don’t have to agree with them, to believe they are justified.
That’s justification to me personally.
It doesn’t have to be globally accepted as the ‘right and good’ thing to be justified.
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For example, you can like The burning of teldrassil. Just don’t try and say genocide/mass murder of innocents is a good thing. That would be trying to justify her actions. Or you know, saying Arthas was right for essentially comitting genocide at Strathholme, without considering any other course of action.
Droite or someone can probably correct me if I’m wrong
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In the case of the phrase “Ends Justify the Means”, its only referring to the notion that the objective being pursued will validate the efforts, choices, and sacrifices to get there. A JUSTIFICATION is merely the motive a person has to make those efforts, choices, and sacrifices … it doesn’t inherently make them right or wrong. But that specific phrase only revolves around “RESULTS” proving the “EFFORTS” correct or necessary.
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So far nobody has suggested a good alternative.
To me, yes. You have to agree with the logic to think it is justified.
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Who said the WQ is lawful good? shes a being that embodies nature’s cycle of death and rebirth, what part of that suggests either the ‘lawful’ or the ‘good’?
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There are some people who believe that that cycle of nature is lawfully good and must be protected. Or that the WQ is lawfully good because she’s trying to protect her realm.
Shouldn’t the expectation be that she’s just Lawful Neutral (or close to it)? At least within her maintenance of her realms. The 4 afterlives we’ve visited and their leaders are essentially the boiler works of the SLs system. They serve a functional role for the general day to day workings of the whole. They can be “nice people”, but when push comes to shove … they really are just people doing a job.
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