We at least know this is not the case. As the Drust are an offshoot of the Vrykul that at some point after the Sundering took up residence on what would become known as Kul Tiras. So we know as a species they are very unlikely to predate the Dragonflayer Vrykul’s succumbing to the Curse of Flesh. We also know that they resided in those territories, and didn’t take refuge fully in Thros until they lost their war against Humanity around 2700 years ago. Now, there may be an argument to make that perhaps Thros itself predates Ardenweald; but in no way does that translate to the Drust themselves being the original inhabitants of either realm of the SLs.
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I doubt that there is any crime that the eternal ones could have committed against Zovaal that would make allying with literal Satan a desirable one.
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man…this thread has been a wild ride
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It depends on what the Shadowlands really is though. Is it really a true afterlife? It doesn’t seem all that eternal or ancient.
EDIT: Whoops, I see you already addressed this point, that’s what I get for reading too fast.
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You know, it’s weird.
It’s almost like… Sylvanas is some kind of brutal psychopath and selfish narcissist, who validates all of the horrible things she does with the same selfish attitude.
It’s almost like that. It’s so weird.
Well Lux I’m late to this discussion by allot but this snippet here is what I’ll comment on, the Barb itself isn’t that the Winterqueen holds her subjects in such low esteem that she sacrificed them on a whim. Her realms denizens willingly chose to do it, and many of them hold a genuine love for their queen. Take Aralorn (however it’s spelled) from the Ardenweald afterlife, the queens interaction with him was one of respect where she gave him the choice to slow his glade to continue on or to sacrifice it for the others.
Syl on the other hand (in my interpretation of all past events) has never really acted in that same fashion. Yes she gave newly raised forsaken a choice to continue on in their cursed existence in the forsaken starting zone, but then you have her forcing this upon more and more people as time went on. Creating forsaken that where just to be thrown at an issue like in silverpine.
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I interpreted this scene totally differently from most apparently. This scene is an example of emotional blackmail and control. She presents Aralorn with an impossible choice that she knows he lacks the full understanding to completely process and is like “it’s okay, I know you like Ursoc, it’s okay if you choose him over everything and everyone you’ve ever known. And also disappointing me your self-appointed unelected Queen for all Eternity”
That is NOT a choice given in good faith. If the Winter Queen were serious in that moment and acting in good faith she would have made the choice to spare or not spare Ursoc herself. Taken responsibility. Instead she passed it on to someone who could barely even comprehend what was happening to him in that moment. That’s not leadership. That’s not heroic. It’s an abdication of responsibility and downright cruel.
The fact that Aralorn meets the fate he meets and the Winter Queen doesn’t bat an eye or flinch, and still calls for her forces to sacrifice themselves to maintain her power and kingdom in 9.1 says everything I need to know about the Winter Queen.
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And hey perfectly reasonable interpretation to have, we both see things differently and nothing wrong with that. Stories can usually have a wide array of interpretations, that each person can come to.
I will say however their sacrifices isn’t for the queen to hold onto her power, but to prevent the jailer from achieving his goals and becoming free. Despite the fact we fail it seems.
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the ends justify the means, if the ends is creating a new and just system.
In regards to the Winter Queen, sometimes the most cruel people disguise themselves as kind.
Just listen to the coldness in the line “this is of my sister, her pet” when she first refuses to save Y’sera. She has ingrained bias. She was gonna let Y’sera die to spite her sister.
Look closer at the WQ.
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Her entire realm is dying and she’s the only one with the power to keep it running. That line was more a I don’t have time for these games. What’s one soul compared to the rest of Ardenweald.
She may be cold, but she’s also making some pretty hard choices. But that’s just my take.
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She was trying to prove a point. Which Aralorn understood. They all care about the situation, but sometimes you have to make said hard choices.
Well the entire drought was an extremely involved plan that had a lot of people taken out. Any system will hurt with enough dedication against it.
Yeah. People crow about how much they think the Shadowlands is broken. Sylvanas hasn’t presented any sort of alternative. She’s just tortured and killed a lot of innocents so far while saying ‘freedom’.
Are we meant to believe Sylvanas, who who tested biological weapons on captured prisoners, who has burned civilians alive, is going to be a good arbiter of justice?
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Its a good take. Especially since people forget that she services the Wild Gods (and those like them) of the ENTIRE Universe. Not just Azeroth. We have no way of knowing what defines those being saved, compared to those we care for that are lost. It should also be noted that the apparent only way for the Winter Queen to save Ysera was to bind her to Ardenweald. Which means that should Ard fall, Ysera will die with it.
That being said, Lux has sort of demonized every single character and faction that finds itself in opposition to Sylvanas at this point. Except Anduin, since its his infinite capacity for empathy that might be Sylvie’s only way out of this story (if she just doesn’t become a Goddess of Death in a very Kerrigan-esk way or something).
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Wow you have such infinite knowledge…
Says the person who’s using a single still very lacking in context line of dialogue as total validation for Sylvanas. And that her “Ends Justify the Means”. An argument I doubt you’d extend to say … Sargaras. You also have demonized pretty much every group in opposition to Sylvie at this point. They’re all the bad guys, so that she can appear the Good Guy? I mean, we still don’t even know what her true objectives are, and the “Loyalist” Players technically cannot really be validated in anything other than Blind Faith. Since throughout all of BfA UNTIL the Loyalist Ending … they were under the impression they (and she) were “Fighting for the Horde”.
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Until her little slip up where she revealed she never cared for any of them to begin with, they were just tools to be used and discarded. And funny how quickly she discarded them when they stopped doing what she wanted.
Sort of like how I expect Zooval to discard Sylvanas, once she’s no longer useful to him
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I thought we addressed the toxicity in the forums yesterday and I thought we made progress, but I guess not.
The forums won’t change if the toxic people won’t change.
Toxicity is NOT people disagreeing with you Lux. There are certainly toxic elements on this thread, but simple disagreement is not one of them. Nor using your own arguments against you to support opposing arguments. Which is a fundamental part of any debate and discussion. You can like Sylvanas all you want, and no one should tell you you can’t. But that doesn’t mean they need to agree with your reasons you’re presenting for why she has to be right; and why the loyalists have to be validated. Which is what we’re discussing here.
Like, the title of this Thread for example is “Ardenweald Spoilers Vindicate Loyalists”. Through an INTERPRETATION of a single, still lacking in context, line of dialogue between the WQ and Sylvanas. Which inherently means that that interpretation of that same out-of-context line of dialogue invalidates everyone who’s not a “Loyalist”. Also, by technicality the “Loyalists” can not be validated in anything other than Blind Faith in Sylvanas herself. Because even they don’t know what she’s fighting for; and were under the impression they were fighting for the Horde up until 8.2.5 (which was proven false). Sylvanas’ Validation in no way trickles down to her followers sad to say.
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I just think there’s a difference between loving a character and justifying some of the horrible or downright evil things said character has done. Like, I love Arthas/The Lich King but I’m not gonna try and justify his actions, you know?
It’s just…just because you love a character, doesn’t mean that character is right or justified. But that’s my honest opinion.
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It’s not just disagreement and you know it.
It’s the method with which you disagree and gaslight that makes you toxic. You know this, you don’t like being called out on your manipulative tactics.
Manipulative, toxic, disillusioned, biased. You disingenously engage and cherry pick lore to support your own bias, that’s not just disagreement, that’s dishonest and in poor faith engagement, and I’m not the only one who calls you out on it
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Was there anything false in what I said in the last few posts that would constitute as gaslighting?
I have seen you periodically demonize Tyrande, Genn, the Alliance, the Horde, and now the WQ in your defenses of Sylvanas so far. Which constitutes the majority of factions and characters that have come into direct opposition with Sylvanas in the current story. It is also not factually incorrect to state that because THEY have never known what Sylvanas herself is fighting for, that the Loyalist PC can’t really be validated in anything other than their Blind Loyalty to Sylvanas herself. Should she be validated in her actions.
I’m not even bringing my admittedly strong stances on Sylvanas into this topic. I’m just disagreeing with some of yours. And your response is to attack me as a person.
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