I think what they mean is that Rygelon was curious to see what Zovaal was doing in the Sepulcher and was caught as a result.
That has happened in other dungeons and raids iirc.
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I am ignoring you because twice now you have aggressively come at me out of nowhere. I don’t understand why. You are right, we have gotten along in the past, and you were coming at me in the Sylvan as thread was strange and ooc for you. I never said anything about you specifically, and yet you treated me like I did.
You have come off now as aggressive and combatative for no reason. It seems like you were piggybacking on my disagreement with Baal to air your own gripes with me, hoping others would join in. That’s the vibe I got from you. You repeatedly made ad Hominem attacks, even though I asked you to stop. I find it hard to understand why you are now acting like you did nothing wrong.
I had an idea of who you were and in the last few weeks you have completely shattered that idea, I thought I knew you, and now I don’t. My walls are up now.
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So Rhonin thought wrong about the Stars in the Universe?
That was not my intention and I do apologize if it did come off that way.
One…
Except I am not. I mean you are the one who wants to act like you did nothing wrong. Considering you said you wanted to drop it and not bring it up only to do so an hour or two later in a reply to Doness. While repeatedly spreading a lie and refusing to back it up when asked.
And even now this reply is responding to something from two hours ago. Weird telling me to drop it only for you to bring it back up again hours later. Almost like you are trying to
What happened to not wanting to derail the thread? You can’t say, “stop it” then continue it yourself hours later. There is a word for that and it is being a hypocrite.
I haven’t changed at all. Honestly it feels like I was wrong about you. Considering our agreements when it came to Thadeus. Then you go around and start acting like him. This thread is proof of this to not only me but also towards Baal.
First off, you have no idea my relationship to Baal, he and I have a friendship and trust. You don’t need to jump in and white knight for everyone I have disagreements with. That makes you look like you will defend anyone against me. Considering the people I end up disagreeing with have good communication skills, both of us are able to move on. I have apologized to a lot of people I’ve upset, and we’ve managed to carry on just fine, that’s on maturity.
We did agree on one irl topic and that was abortion, because of that I thought you were an ally to women. I still think you are, don’t get me wrong, I just feel off about you now. Like a distrust, and it’s going to take a bit to get it back because you were so quick to attack me when we disagree. Also, you think that pointing out how Finnibas and Smalloz feel about me and then asserting that you agree with them is lumping yourself in with a couple of not so great posters, How am I not supposed to think you now think like them? Are you like Finninbas and Smallioz? Because if so, you can stay on my block list with them, they are both on there for a reason.
I feel like I have given you multiple chances to make things right, and just forgive and forget, but you don’t want that to happen, so let’s air out our dirty laundry so we both can move on.
There have been times where I have “white knighted” for you, mainly against Thadeus. So don’t act it is only towards those who disagree with you.
I would say this thread brought out the truth. Considering how negative you described him.
And yet this is a lie. I mean you replied to a post I made over two hours ago after saying you wanted ALL of us to drop it. I moved on, Micah moved on. But then you came back and had to get the last word two hours after. I mean hell, after our first disagreement on this thread I left it alone then an hour or so later you bring it back up again. After repeatedly saying to end it and to never bring it back up again.
They weren’t the only ones I listed on that other thread that called you out. Even some of your “allies” did so too like Doness. Are you going to dump him in the same group because of that? And no, I am not like those two.
And I have forgiven and forgotten. Again, you just replied to a post that was made TWO HOURS ago.
That is why I called you a hypocrite. You were going on saying to drop it and never bring it back up again. Only for you to do so not once but now twice.
Not aligned, but assigned.
Well, I guess that’s up to Baal to decide if he wants to continue our friendship. This specific topic is a hot button issue for both of us. We are both equally invested and passionate about this topic.
I wanted to drop it, but I also wanted to sit with my thoughts for a while because I know you are upset and this wasn’t something that was going to just get swept under the rug because you thought I called you a misogynist. I didn’t, you were on the list of people who I knew disliked Sylvanas, but I still respected because you had shown me that despite the narrative possibly being sexist, that wasn’t the vibes I got from you. But now I’m not so sure. I think I’m not the first Sylvanas fan to call this narrative sexist and I have seen that it does get a viceral reaction from people. The way I see it is, if it’s something most Sylvanas’ fans see I’m not crazy, plus we know Afrasabi potentially salted the earth of this narrative before departing the company, that’s not speculation that’s almost fact, it’s been all but confirmed.
You don’t have to call me a hypocrite, you just need to understand that I was never attacking you and just put whatever this is to rest. One thing you should know about me is I’m quick to forgive and I don’t like letting bad feelings fester.
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It most likely is. However certain character reactions to the narrative are most likely not sexist at its core. As I have pointed out using quotes from Wrath and MoP, Saurfang is willing to fight and kill anyone he sees that would lead the new horde down a dark path. Becoming the very thing he wanted to leave behind in shame (the Old Horde). Regardless of who or what they are. Whether it is the son of an old friend or Sylvanas. And that is the point I was trying to get across. I am sorry if the methods I have used made it feel like I was attacking you. This time around I was not. But I can see why you could think that way. Since I did come into this thread and replied within minutes of your heated argument with Baal.
Agreed.
It’s not so much Saurfang as a character or Sylvanas as a character because you are right they are both fundimentally In character. It’s the choice to have him say she is right and then also have him hate her. It’s the fact that he planned the War of Thorns and then blamed her for killing the Night Elves in game, even though he takes personal responsibility in A Good War. It’s the narrative choice to make Saurfang say “She’s stealing/ruining my Horde” and then have him say that she’s Blackhand’s Legacy. like she’s the Old Horde he remembers. It doesn’t make sense unless you read between the lines and see that these were deliberate choices made by the writing team to prop up Saurfang as a hero and Sylvanas as a villain.
When you look at what Sylvanas did, she didn’t do anything any other Horde leader wouldn’t have done, she just did it unethically. Even Saurfang’s idea of Honor was fundimentally flawed because he didn’t care if the Horde died as long as they remained honorable, Syvanas was willing to be dishonourable to save the Horde. One is right and one is wrong and even Saurfang admits Sylvanas was right, Loyalists were right.
I don’t think Micah and I ever meant this directed at you but there are people who choose to follow Saurfang just because they dislike the idea of a strong women in charge. That’s just true, I’ve seen it personally in my guildies, I’ve seen it irl when people make arguments on why women can’t or shouldn’t lead. Sylvanas was the first Female overall faction leader, not just one of first female racial leaders. And it only took ONE expansion for the writers to pull the “the woman in charge is crazy, let’s dispose of her” card… you have to see how that looks.
To me I feel like this is more directed to the burning of Teldrassil then just killing Night Elves in general. Saurfang clearly did not want, nor expect Teldrassil to become the worlds largest bonfire (suck it Ragnaros). He even warned Sylvanas that doing something akin to that will unleash the full wrath of the Alliance. Which is what Sylvanas actually wanted in the end.
Yeah I can see that. However he did say similar things to and about Garrosh during Wrath and MoP. That is why I am more leaning towards Sylvanas getting the villain bat as a result of Garrosh getting the villain bat in Cata. However I will not deny that Alex’s views towards women played a factor in it as well. I said as much in my first response to the Sylvanas sabotage thread.
This is why I feel that the War of Thorns should’ve been a response to the Alliances aggression in Silithus in the epilogue to Legion. However it is not framed like that at all.
oh believe me that is not me at all. My basis for somewhat defending Saurfang comes from his lore, not because he is strong man beating evil strong woman. But I will admit that there have been some strong women in positions of power that are poorly written. Then you have ones like Azshara is just perfect. Azshara is one of my favourite characters. Particularly how she manipulated people like Xavius into believing they had a chance to overthrow her.
Meanwhile get those men up on the stand and they will cry like babies 24/7. It is why I laughed whenever the GoP was like “Hillary is too emotional”, then it cuts to her not throwing a tantrum when she was being investigated by the republican controlled senate for hours and days, weeks, months on end. Meanwhile Kavanagh cried the whole time he was being interviewed for the supreme court.
There should have been more emphasis on the fact that Tyrande was instigating war. I don’t think the writers let the Alliance look bad and because of that it hurts the narrative and always makes the Horde look worse.
The Alliance sent so many spies on Orgrimmar, that’s an act of hostility. The Alliance was being hostile to the Horde, long before the Horde invaded Ashenvale.
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This might actually be a good idea. It could be that when the Void split An’she’s soul in half, one side went to the Shadowlands. That side could’ve been taken by the First Ones and put into Zovaal. In this case, it might’ve been a plan by the Void to take over the Shadowlands. It’s possible Zovaal’s defeat will open the way for the Void somehow.
It is why I love Stormheim. The Alliance gets to act as the instigators and they simply do not care if Anduin will hate it. Genn wants justice for his son and kingdom. If it means disobeying orders then so be it. He knows Sylvanas is up to something and he wants to stop it.
It is also why I prefer if the Alliance found that journal from Azsuna that lays out what Sylvanas is up to in Stormheim. What annoys me with Legion is that there is no set chronological order of four main leveling zones. At least BFA has you go from one zone to the next in a set order now.
As I mentioned about SI:7 and Alliance heroes attacking horde aligned goblins in Silithus.
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This honestly just seems like too much to tie into Zovaal considering how much of an uninteresting character he has been despite how much he’s been attached to.
A ‘Fallen An’she’ storyline could be really interesting, but it is probably better saved for a new character.
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Personally I just want Zovaal to disappear and be forgotten about. He is not interesting and no matter what blizzard does, it is far too late to try and make him interesting now.
I feel like Sylvanas gets so much flack for what she did in BfA and the War of Thorns that people forget that she had sound motives. She explained that Azerite was dangerous in the Alliance’s hands and Tyrande was moving troops to Faralas to contend Silithus. Sylvanas made a bold move to cut off Tyrande’s retreat and sever the Alliance’s last stronghold in kalimdor.
I do think she didn’t intend to burn the tree until after Saurfang failed to kill Malfurian and she did use the rallied Alliance to set a trap in her own seat of power. A trap that would have been successful had Jaina not shown up.
She took calculated risks. Her plans were brilliant, but she underestimated Genn and Saurfang and I think that’s what lead to her downfall. I don’t think she was trying to cause as much death as possible because that tease with her working for the Jailer didn’t happen until the prologue of the Loyalist campaign, in BfA she was a pawn of N’Zoth. (She may still be a pawn of N’Zoth, since N’Zoth was counting on the defeat of the Jailer)
Anyway my Aussie friend, we will have to finish this conversation tommorow it’s 11pm here.
I view Zovaal more as a plot device than a character.
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This sounds like Light villain-batting. An’she, Yrel, the AU “Light Mother” 
This will either be another “X corrupted Y” story or we’re looking at villain-batting and ax-grinding on real-life issues.
How though?