Afrasiabi’s honorable Garrosh punished Krom’gar for doing what Garrosh would later do in Theramore.
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Yeah Garroshs’ goals throughout Cata was to secure central Kalimdor for the Horde.
Even more so after the Cataclsym where the only way to get from the Northern Barrens to the Southern Barrens was either via the coast line or through Stonetalon and Ashenvale. With the coast line being occupied by pirates and later, Alliance troops.
That is an oversimplification of it.
The druid school was not a threat. It even had a horde citizen enrolled to prove that. Krom’gar simply did not care and wasted a powerful one of a kind WMD on it. Theramore however was aiding the Alliances campaigns into the Southern Barrens and beyond while at the same time priding itself on being “neutral”. I mean the Theramore Highway was built for a reason. To easily move siege engines etc through Dustwallow Marsh.
Theramores forces also would later occupy forts previously held by the remaining Kul Tiran forces from Dailen’s fleet. Including one in Durator.
Now Garroshs’ methods to remove Theramore was evil, no doubt about that. But to say that he targeted a non-combatant city state like how Krom’gar targeted a school is incorrect.
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See, that’s where the double standards come in for Sylvanas. Garrosh’s attempt to secure Kalimdor for the Horde was framed as “Honorable” but when Sylvanas does the exact same thing it’s framed as “evil” That’s where the sexism and hypocrisy comes into play. You have Saurfang as the mediator for the audience, praising Garrosh and condemning Sylvanas for the very same goal.
That’s why Saurfang is a hypocrite.
When did he praise Garrosh? If Saurfang was on team Garrosh he wouldn’t have rebelled against him.
According to the Shattering novel, Saurfang remained in Northrend until Vol’jins rebellion was in full swing. I mean Saurfang even threatened to kill Garrosh if he took the horde down a dark path back in Wrath.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Varok_Saurfang#Dialogue_with_Garrosh_in_Warsong_Hold
And Saurfang was going to make true on this promise in SoO. Until he got injured fighting the Mantid. This convo even came back in War Crimes. Even saying that Garrosh should face orcish justice. Aka a Mak’gora.
So I would say his reaction to Sylvanas burning Teldrassil is within his character. Not a sudden change because sexism. But I am speaking to a brick wall extremist who blocks anyone who doesn’t agree with them. So why am I even bothering.
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Can you stop with the Ad Hominem attacks? I blocked you because you can’t objectively talk about sexism without getting defensive, and you keep bringing it up.
I don’t want to talk about sexism. I want to talk about WoW lore.
You were asked nicely not to derail this thread with that topic, and you didn’t listen.
Pointing out that Saurfangs characterization in BFA consistent with his characterization in the past = getting defensive?
So then why do you bring it up in nearly every Sylvanas thread? Hell you were the one who brought it up again with your reply to Doness.
Once you stop labelling me as a sexist simply because I don’t agree that Saurfangs view towards Sylvanas is sexist and only sexist. And pointing out that he had the same views towards Garrosh is not reverse sexism. It is making a point of character consistency. Something that is very rare these days.
I mean you have yet to provide evidence of Saurfang praising Garrosh. I have provided evidence of the exact opposite.
The thread was already derailed a long time before I came along.
I’m going to ask you one last time to drop this crusade you have against me.
Sure, just provide some evidence of Saurfang praising Garrosh like you claimed. Otherwise you are flat out lying.
You have already lied about not wanting to discuss it even though you brought it back up again with your reply to Doness.
Also it is rich that you are thinking that I have a crusade against you. I don’t. I just want to know why you feel that way. Stop acting like Thadeus.
Since we’re back to this for the umpteenth time, it’s not strictly and only sexist, but it’s there. Instead of just saying that Sylvanas is tearing apart THE Horde, he says she’s destroying HIS horde implying she doesn’t belong in the sandbox with the boys.
He even admits later that Sylvanas is closer to what the Orchish Horde was than he cared to admit in the past
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I don’t really see it that way but I can see why people would. Saurfang was one of the founding members of Thralls new horde, along with Vol’jin and Cairne. And he has gone on record saying he is willing to kill anyone who tries to undo that. As I have previously quoted when it came to Garrosh.
The problem I have is when people make up falsehoods etc and then throw a tantrum when they get asked to back up those falsehoods.
Having a different opinion or seeing it from a different angle is fine. But to deny that there’s a little bit of sexism at play is just weird to me.
“the Horde deserves to be saved, and anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us.” You say that this is an honorable phrase yes? this is what makes Saurfang great because he said this to Garrosh?
This is what Sylvanas said to Saurfang in the battle for Lorderaon when he wanted the Horde to surrender to the Alliance and die gloriously in battle. Saurfang mirrored Garrosh too in BfA.
It was Saurfang who wanted to squander the Horde and Sylvanas wanted to save it by securing Azerite and kalimdor for the Horde, but she used unethical tactics to do it. Is it bad to use unethical tactics if the end result is the security of your people? Garrosh was praised for this… at first, even by Saurfang.
Like I said, my problem stems from when people claim X but when asked to back up X with sources, they refuse then try to end the discussion there and then.
It feels disingenuous and cowardly.
How exactly is that praising Garrosh though? And how is Saurfang wanting to concede mirroring Garrosh? Garrosh would’ve fought, not surrendered.
Save it from whom? The Alliance wasn’t at war with the Horde until after Teldrassil. And I doubt that Anduin would willingly start a war with the horde over Azerite. Given that he didn’t want to claim total victory over the Zandalari following BoD.
This is my main problem with BFA. Everyone suddenly acting stupid so the plot can start moving. Everyone is a victim of Blizzards piss poor writing.
Again, where is the quote of Saurfang praising Garrosh? You keep saying he did but have not yet provided any evidence of it. Considering that Saurfang never appeared in Cata and the last reference of his location was still in Northrend in the Shattering Novel. He would later appear in MoP alongside Thrall wanting to confront and remove Garrosh from power. Saurfang was even against Garrosh wanting to attack the Alliance during Wrath. Which is what leads to his death threat if Garrosh would lead the new horde down a dark path. Akin to that of the Old Horde.
Also what happened to not wanting to discuss this?
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We were talking about An’she, at no point did I make this thread about Sylvanas, Denona you are the one who derailed this thread talking about Sylvanas and sexism.
I have nothing else to add to this discussion.
And it ended. Until you replied to Doness and opened it back up again. So don’t act like I’m the only one at fault here.
Aka I have no evidence of Saurfang praising Garrosh but I refuse to admit it.
Renautus, you shouldn’t make bold claims like that if you refuse to supply evidence of it. Particularly if it is a cornerstone of your arguments.
I tried to tell him... to tell him [Nazgrim] that Hellscream betrayed us, cast aside a Warchief's responsibility to his own people. But Nazgrim... too loyal... too proud. Damn Hellscream. His ambition tore our Horde apart.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Varok_Saurfang#Siege_of_Orgrimmar_2
Does this sound like someone who praises Garrosh?
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Can y’all just stop? I swear man, some you guys just suck the air right out of every conversation. Can we PLEASE go one damn day without beating the dead horse for once?
Also nice job derailing the thread and turning it into a Saurfang vs Sylvanas topic. I just…I can’t with some y’all.
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We had gone a few weeks without beating it.
Than why bring it up again?
It’s just more of the same talking points and arguements. WHat did you think was going to change?
What can I say? I am insane.
But I was hoping Ren would act a bit more mature instead of making up bold statements then refusing to back them up. While I was supplying evidence for mine.
At this point I should know better. I mean they basically did the same with Baal in this thread as well.
I reported you two weeks ago for trolling for doing this exact same thing.
You are trolling right now. You are trying to derail threads, singling me out specifically.
You are purposefully bringing up upsetting or inflammatory topics to get a reaction of me.