So you feel it’s fair to punish the majority of the group for the bad behaviour of one person? After they’ve already had the inconvenience of a bad group member? That seems reasonable.
I think that’s the problem with majority rules. Just because there’s more of them, doesn’t mean they’re more right… or more deserving of being heard.
How is it not fair wanting to help someone learn? He did his research, he looked into it and he was going at a good pace and pulling the marked mobs.
No, but it doesn’t make them less right by default either. And unless you have all the facts you should go on weight of probability. It’s more likely that one person got something wrong than three people.
If you really want to commit to “weight of probability” then you should go by evidence. Since there’s none, there’s nothing to go by. Hence, giving OP the benefit of the doubt since they took the time to detail their account of the situation.
Look, the pendulum swings both ways here. There is a potential for a single player to either troll the rest of the group, or else a potential for the rest of the group to unfairly kick a single player.
Yes, in a perfect world, a group should be able to get rid of a troll without having to pay some sort of cost to it. But I think you’re being rather dramatic calling it a “punishment” to do so.
Yes, in a perfect world, a single player should not be unjustly kicked from a group because of misplaced blame, or the other players in the group trolling as a group, or (most common scenario) most of the other players in the group simply pressing the kick button without paying attention to who is getting kicked or why.
But there is no perfect, fair, automated system to handle both scenarios. There just isn’t.
My idea is to add a cost to the vote kick system, where it costs the players __ to kick someone. Do I think this is a perfect solution? No. Because again, there is no perfect solution to this. But I do think it is more fair than the current solution alone.
And no, I do not consider it “punishing” the group to have a cost associated with something to ensure they actually care about the action they are about to take. This is a cost, to ensure the players value the decisions they make.
Look at this scenario. Player A in the group wants to blame player B for things going badly. So player A initiates a vote kick on player B. Players C, D, and E don’t really bother to look at the reason for kick or who is being kicked; they just blindly press the yes button. Thus player B is unfairly kicked. This is a common scenario.
So, tell me who is being unfair in this scenario? Tell me why it is unfair to “punish” the rest of the group with a cost to that vote kick? IMO it is not unfair, and it is not a “punishment” that they be charged a cost for it.
If the cost were in place, some or all of the other players might not have so quickly and blindly voted to kick. If you don’t vote or vote no, you don’t pay. If you do vote yes, you do. Knowing they will incur a cost for doing so, they should be more inclined to stop and see who is actually getting kicked, why they are getting kicked, and if it’s worth the cost to kick them.
And then the other common scenario, where there is 1 person who is definitely being a troll. Yes, I agree that in a perfect world, the other players should be able to get rid of the troll without having a cost.
But again, there is no way to automate a system to just know which scenario is at play here. Blizzard employees are not going to come in and babysit every LFD/LFR to ensure everybody is playing nice.
So yeah, the cost is kind of a bummer in this scenario. But it’s not really there to mitigate unfairness from this scenario; it’s there to mitigate unfairness for the previous scenario.
But it does still benefit this scenario, because to a degree, it also keeps the group honest about what they consider to be a troll. Some dps who won’t stop pulling? It’s annoying, especially for the tank, but if overall the group is handling it, then its probably not worth kicking them over. Tank pulling too slow? Probably not worth kicking them. etc. So it does benefit this scenario in that it helps the group consider whether or not it’s really worth kicking someone.
TL;DR - Overall, I do think adding a cost to vote kick system would help mitigate unfair kicks in all scenarios, and I do not consider it “punishment” in any scenario.
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100% this. Let the kickers finish the dungeon but remove the random loot satchel from the end if they remove one of their randomly-selected players. Makes total sense, and it punishes no one. They refused the random group so they don’t get random loot. They finish the dungeon without their troll or the hated gnome/panda/girl/non-guildie in their presence. They get their chuckles, their base xp, and their loot. But no gift/bonuses for doing a random…since they rejected the random.
Makes total sense to me.
The bonus is for joining a random pug. If you throw out members of the random pug…you’ve manufactured a premade and don’t deserve a bonus for doing a random. They are capable of making that select out afk’s and d/c’s. The system kicks afk’ers from BG’s right? Or am I making that up? I could swear it does.
So…afk’ers or d/c’s get automatically removed and everyone else has to put up with one another or deal with no grab bag and bonus.
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Or what about this: My earlier idea is my ideal, but it sounds complicated to implement, so what if, instead:
Give people a limit. You only get x kicks per week (like 2 or 3), and if you use more than that, you become ineligible for LFD until the week resets. That would be easier, right? It would make people THINK before clicking “yes.” And then no one gets punished except people who vote to kick like a daily habit or for trolling fun.
I’ve never voted to kick anyone from any group that wasn’t afk or d/c’d that I can recall. I just don’t do it. I also do a lot of leveling pugs on my various alts, and I’ve never been kicked that I can recall. It doesn’t happen a lot per person, but it happens a LOT overall, and it’s being abused by some people. There has to be a way to combat it.
So what if you have someone purposefully trying to grief the group, by causing wipes or being obnoxious? Why should the group lose their bonuses because of that one person?
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Wrong, it punishes the people who get queue’d in with some DPS who queue’d as tank, and has no idea what to do and cannot complete the current dungeon. It punishes people who get a troll that purposely wipes them over and over. It punishes healers and tanks who ONLY queue for a satchel but now are held at the mercy of these vitriolic players if they want to keep their reward. You think it’s hard to find a tank NOW? Just wait.
PS: You DO know in order to get the satchel you have to queue alone right? You can’t queue in with 3 guildies and get the satchel. Thus if someone is getting kicked when a healer or tank is getting the satchel, it might not even be them removing you. You could be taking away their satchel for something they didn’t even do. And before you say it, if they have to vote yes to lose the bonus, they’ll just get everyone else to do it for them. The rest of the team loses nothing remember?
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LOL. Since there’s no evidence you have nothing to go by… followed IMMEDIATELY by trust the OP. Whatever you’re smoking i want some.
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That’s not what “benefit of the doubt” means. At all.
The way you’re using it it sure does. You’re taking his word over the 3 people who kicked. You’re giving a complete stranger THREE times the trust you’re giving 3 OTHER complete strangers. That’s picking someone to trust.
I never said anything like that.
i have a suggestion: make a guild and invite good players in your level bracket that you can level/run dungeons/raid with. might take awhile but since you know how to play your character, you’re already ahead of the game
If you’re not taking his word over the 3 people who voted to kick, then LOGICALLY, it is FAR more likely 1 person was a troll than 3. So it is FAR more likely the system worked exactly as it should and there is no problem here.
Everyone who votes yes in my scenario loses the bonus.
And healers do not have instaqueues. Healers don’t get extra bonuses. The simple fact of the matter is, I have seen vote kicks happen MUCH more often for “that guy bugs me” or “he pulled/made a mistake/died” so we kick him. Those are trivial, spiteful, and unnecessary reasons to kick people. Throwing out a random player should be a more weighty decision.
People complain about community toxicity, and one of the main reasons is that there is no consequence for being a total d-bag.
There should be weight to the decision to kick someone out of a dungeon and deprive them of loot and put a 30-minute “no more playing for you” debuff on them. There should be consequences for being anti-social in an MMO.
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The other three people haven’t said anything. I didn’t take anyone’s word as truth. You don’t understand what I’ve said in the slightest.
The rest of the team doesn’t GET a bonus. When’s the last time a dps got a satchel?
Healers get satchels all the time. I run my priest thru 4 or 5 every week to funnel this guy runes.
That’s because they’re not here whining on the forums about the troll they had to remove. They’re just thankful the system worked and moved on.