I suppose that is fair and true 
2 Likes
Iâm disgusted about a mention of another Zereth and âFirst Onesâ!
Yes Odynâs throne is GoldenâŠ
The writers clearly didnât buy his propaganda on Helya. Infact it seems the writers were the Players themselves following Legion!
They read the Scrolls of Odyn, figured out Helyaâs fate, learned that Azeroth was a Titan, recovered the Artifact knowledge of Freya, listened to Xeâra about the Titansâ demise, read Odynâs propaganda about Old Gods, found the remnant of the Sporemound in Aggramarâs possession and listened to the voice coming from Wrathionâs mouth.
The Player had all the knowledge he needed to write the Chronicles even if they were faulty.
Perhaps the legend of Ra-Den smashing YâShaarj to pieces with the Mogu is indeed truth and the legend of CâThun slaying a Titan is also truth which suggests that Sargeras & Argus both pulled the same stunt as Azeroth but the Titan who fought CâThun did not and died as a result.
Itâs funny to imagine Sargeras killing the Titans simply due to being the size of a Planet while the rest were the size of Mountains at best!
1 Like
This is pretty interesting all around, but I call into question if this is really a ânewâ angle for the Titanic side of things. They themselves seem pretty chill, but recall Algalon the Observer for a moment.
Algalon the Observer yells: I have seen worlds bathed in the Makersâ flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart devoid of emotion⊠of empathy. I. Have. Felt. Nothing. A million-million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?
Algalon the Observer yells: Perhaps it is your imperfections⊠that which grants you free will⊠that allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds. You prevail where the Titanâs own perfect creations have failed.
It really feels like this is a case of the Titanâs creations going a bridge too far, rather than the Titans themselves, once again. Which really has been an consistent thing throughout WoW.
9 Likes
They belong to the same group, weâve known this since the shadowlands. There are 6 main forces outside of the mortal realm, all have their own âworldâ and zerith. The mortal realm is where they all meet pretty much.
Outside of being divided into these 6 main groups of, Arcane, Fel, Death, Void, Light, Life. Each group either belongs to order/structure or disorder/unstructured. Order is Arcane, Death, Light. They are more static and stable and dislike change and want everything ordered one way. On disorder, thereâs Fel, Life, and Void. Disorder does not tend towards one way orderly systems, think ever-evolving life, the void witnessing all possible futures and considering them all true, etc.
Also on the mortal plane there are elementals, itâs their native home.
It was Tyr that decided they would be fit to defend Azeroth, not the titans. the keepers then called for aid to empower the dragons after the keepers decided it would be so. And they channeled the titans through themselves into the aspects.
Thereâs an even outer layer to this map. Or rather another way to group them. And that is if they are structured/unstructured or you could say orderly/disorderly.
The light, Order(arcane), and Death demand structure and order.
While Life, disorder(Fel), and Void are unstructured.
This is how the people in the shadowlands structure their cosmic chart.
1 Like
Titans being douchebags is pretty consistent. Iâm glad this is indeed the direction their writingâs taking
5 Likes
I could see the fall of Ulduar as grounds for him to change his mind about robots > creatures of flesh. After all, his whole âDragons would make terrible guardiansâ came from a belief that because proto drakes were fleshy, they could be easily controlled and corrupted by the void (he was right about this). Only the titanforged were beyond such problems. And yet Yogg-saron managed to control Mimiron, Freya, Hodir, other titanforged and way later Thorim (thanks to us being duped by Loken) while blackmailing Loken. Plus the curse of flesh changed a very large majority of titanforged into flesh. Disproving Odyns beliefs that titanforged were above corruption of any kind yet again.
So I can see where Blizzard is coming from with his whole ârobots > mortalsâ shtick here. Where this book was written prior to the uplifting of the Aspects and their flights. Since Odyn practically stopped being Prime Designate when that happened. Loken would later manipulate the record and Ulduars failsafes into thinking he was the Prime Designate when he was being blackmailed by Yogg.
I donât think it is meant to be an association with Fel. More like Life can be chaotic, wild and untamable until you bring in Order. Such as the sporemounds, and their descendants on Draenor for example.
It is a real shame that things like this couldâve been explored if we got a proper Black Empire expansion. Actually make Nâzoth the boy who cried wolf like they tried to do in BFA (as in he is trying to warn us about Sylvanas and Zovaal but we ignore it).
Hell, the curse of flesh didnât happen until after Odyn had a tantrum about the dragon aspects. As Loken killed Sif after Odyn & Helya had gone and made the Halls of Valor using his [Odyns] wing of Ulduar.
We kinda knew this since Chronicles vol 1. Hell, Odyn thought that Highkeeper Ra would support him in the case against the Dragon Aspects. When the only keeper who could rival his authority sided with Tyr instead, Odyn threw a tantrum.
8 Likes
Yeah, more like âsmall câ chaos, whereas if it were a reference to a connection with the fel it seems like Disorder would be used. Plus itâs worth remembering that the Pantheon already had a history of Ordering chaotic worlds even before the demons started crossing over to their Reordered planets and introducing them to the fel, so conceptually âchaosâ for them would likely just entail an absence of viable structure and organization rather than specifically the involvement of the plane of Disorder.
Arguably Order and Disorder (and therefore arcane and the fel) both have their own structures and internal ârulesâ that govern how they operate in the universe, while the concept of âchaosâ would amount to nothing and nobody observing or enforcing the rules. Chaos as a concept is in a way subjective; a system of sufficient complexity or deliberate obfuscation can very well be chaotic to the observation of an agency that isnât privy to the plan behind it. That doesnât mean the system lacks order; it just means said order isnât recognizable without garnering more information.
Which is why Odyn calling Life chaos would be both right and wrong depending upon the person. Life has a âplanâ behind it, following its own rules and limits within the constraints of how the universe works as a whole, but because Odyn wouldnât know what all of those rules are, Life would be chaotic and directionless to him as it doesnât obey the same laws and observe the same limits with which heâs familiar.
2 Likes
I feel like this might be giving the cosmic force of Life far more clout than it actually has.
Draenor once more feels like a prime example to bring up. We saw what happens when the power of Life runs rampant and untamed, and we know Draenor wouldâve been doomed because of it. Somehow, a dead world without any life on it sounds EXTREMELY counter-intuitive to what Life should be about. So, I donât think one could suggest that Draenor and itâs Sporemounds were part of any sort of plan by the cosmic forces of Life.
I think its also a bit curious to suggest the Titans donât understand life, given Eonarâs domain includes it, and her Titan Watcher shaped the Emerald Dream as a blueprint for Azeroth.
The thing with Order and the Titans is that they really do adapt to other cosmic forces. Argus was a Titan of Death, Eonar is a Titan of Life, etc⊠One might even argue Sargeras became a Titan of Disorder (which sounds like it should be impossible, yet here we are). We also know the Titans fear the possibility of a Void Titan. Meanwhile, given what Azerothâs blood looks like, its entirely possible Azeroth is going to be a Titan of Light.
Odynâs words came off as narrow-minded. He doesnât see, âLife,â in any other way than that which is curated by the Titans as being worthy of being seen as such. Thatâs just Odyn, though. Other Titans/Titan-Constructs were far more open-minded.
1 Like
My use of âplanâ isnât so much meant to imply a cogent agenda on the part of Life as a cosmic force in any given situation; itâs just the built-in ârulesâ by which Life as a fundamental essence of creation functions in the universe. Iâm basically saying that just because the nature of Life makes it capable of running amok - indeed, even to its own potential detriment - doesnât mean itâs inherently without its own structure and purpose. Arguably thatâs what Tyr âgetsâ and what Odyn doesnât; Life has its own part to play in the workings of the world(s), and for it to do so one has to recognize that there are both benefits and detriments to its tendencies. Tyr sees the potential of letting Life with its own unique traits work alongside Order, while Odyn sees Lifeâs divergence from the parameters of Order as something that needs to be discouraged if not outright clamped down and suppressed.
Itâs two different concepts of adaptation; one mindset allows for Order to adapt to the frameworks of other agencies it encounters, while the other believes that Order is meant to compel adaptation to its own framework from everything else.
4 Likes
What the 
is this??? Odyn left the titans long before fleshy folks came to be.
Yes, Iâm wrong all the time. Donât mind me. For some reason, I thought the âcâ in âchaosâ was a capital one. It seems to have started a discission, so my post wasnât completely useless.
First thing I thought reading this is that theyâre trying to make sure everyoneâs on board with killing off Odyn.
6 Likes
I donât think youâll hear many complaints about them offing Odyn. Outside of his fans that is 
2 Likes
Itâs very easy to miss what a scumbag he is. The only way to know are in-game books which are way too easy to miss, and out of game books/discussions. The problem is, even if these are quest books thatâs barely less obscure to the semi-casual audience, so hard to say if Zarrinâs right; as ways of prepping the wider audience, there are better. But maybe thereâll be cutscenes in this way through 10.x too.
Discussion in this topic has convinced me that maybe Iâm being a little alarmist about Odynâs portrayal here becoming robotic. Iâm reluctant to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt and still half-expect Odyn to start screeching about how he wants to turn us all into robots now and how he always hated feasts right before he starts the fight⊠but if you go into everything expecting the worst, itâs hard to enjoy anything.
1 Like
I am personally upset that Shadowlandsâ lore looks like it will be all over this expansion. I wish it were gone.
8 Likes
Last raid of Dragonflight: Zereth Ordus.
Players must stop Odyn from transforming himself into a new, all-powerful uber Titan that puts the Jailer to shame.
5 Likes
Even in real life sometimes a population of a species can outgrow its food source. Leaving to widespread death and maybe even decimation of the local ecosystem. Which is why predators and sometimes scheduled and controlled cullings (aka hunting seasons) are sometimes necessary to control a certain population. Even more so if that species has no natural predators to control its population. For example, Cane toads in north eastern Australia (aka Queensland). Natures goal is simply to survive and thrive. Which can be seen as chaotic as Mother Nature doesnât give a damn about âorderâ. Hence why us humans have to come up with crazy ways to try and bring âorderâ to things that are not directly related. Such as the concepts of days, months and years. The time it takes for the Earth to rotate on its axis (days) is not related to the time it takes for the moon to orbit Earth (lunar month) . Yet we measure that time using the time it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis. Same applies to the rotation of the earth around the sun. Which is why things like leap years exist.
As for Odyn and Tyrs take on Life at this point in time. Tyrâs position is to let it go about its course but keep a watchful eye so it doesnât get too out of control. Donât want another sporemound situation. Odyns position however is to purge and subjugate it into submission. Even the slightest evolutionary change must be stamped out if it doesnât follow his vision.
I see places like Unâgoro, The Vale and the basin as good examples of Tyrs PoV. Each of them had titanforged watching over them but they allowed the life experiments in those areas to roam free. We even meet one of these watchers in Cataâs version of Unâgoro towards the end. Even Freya on her travels around Azeroth mostly sat back and watched the Wild Gods grow into their own. For example, Freya didnât interfere when Ashamane fought off a pack of wolves when she was just a cub.
I would say most of this is projection on Odyns part. He doesnât understand it, so he claims that the Titans donât either. And since he was the highest ranked titan keeper given his status⊠his word was law basically.
I do like this aspect of the Legion. Sargeras brought actual structure and order through the only means demons know. Strength. But even he knew he couldnât do it alone. hence the recruitment of the Eredar. Some demons felt they had to serve the legion out of fear of their lives. Until someone like Illidan came along that could open up a different path. One that could rival the Legion.
Which is why the Legion is now gone. Demons still exist and will continue to cause problems but without an actual leadership structure, they will spend more time fighting against themselves for domination over each other than us.
It is the continuation that remains in shadowlands, it really is Danuserâs crap and his PLAN that shows each villain without free will until the true enemies are shown who supposedly are the ones who created the Naruus like light lords and the void lords who treat cosmology as their food.
Itâs really getting frustrating, and more frustrating since we heard the name of FIRST ONE, it was really the burial to the mysteries and fantasy that amazed us Azeroth and reason why we appreciate in lore since the first RTS.
It really makes me sick that every book they have bought, is thrown in the trash to see every retcon even ruin the great work that Melzten did in the first Warcraft Chronicles, definitely some of the unshown Gameplay is the only thing that saves Dragonflight.
But unfortunately one of the reasons why Iâm not going to buy the game is for the RPG and its lore, something that died since its R.E.I. from Sylvanas in 9.1.
3 Likes
Maybe Iâm alone here in this, but Titans being morally grey doesnât seem THAT bad, it makes sense. AlsoâŠthis book is written by Odyn, not the Titans. We all known Odyn is Prime Bloody Designate and has his own opinions, so heâs speaking for the Titans but then again he isnât 
6 Likes