(This is Melaned. Posting on this character as he is my current main and my love for AV also taking part because Alliance side is dwarven based. Dwarven master race!)
Kaivax, to further push my point I want to state another post based entirely on the presentation of Classic in Restoring History presentation of Blizzcon 2018.
I will be focused on design philosophy as it was presented to us by Ion. For reference material of those reading this post here is a link directly to the beginning of said presentation.
As Ion questions, “Do we do work to remove something that was added to reintroduce something?” I ponder if he means this for things that occurred during Vanilla? I mean anything added after Vanilla should in general not be in Classic if I am not mistaken so him asking this about non-vanilla things would not fit.
With this very early line alone I argue that reintroducing 1.5 or 1.8 AV would be the epitome of bringing something back that can no longer be experienced. It was a major part of Vanilla, something that was fleeting yes but those that got the chance to participate in it often remember it fondly and greatly compared to its later forms.
Ion right from there goes to ask “Or in some cases do we even re-add certain bugs that were fixed along the way but felt like part of the experience?”
I understand that 1.12 AV was a part of the vanilla experience, but that form of AV is by far the lesser compared to 1.5 or 1.8 AVs which were greatly remembered by nearly all whom participated. Yes it is much different than the current iteration of AV in the current WoW but exactly how much different? I’d wager that it is a LOT closer to the current AV in current WoW than it is to 1.5 AV. Does the Classic team support the idea of bringing something in because it was “fixed” and eventually was a closer model to the current game? That seems to go against everything we have asked for, even if it includes bugs which Ion himself states could and maybe should be replicated to give us an authentic Vanilla experience.
Ion then targets the community and social dynamics that “are part of what defined WoW Classic”.
I think we can all agree that the social aspects that were introduced into the game back then truly are the defining feats behind it. So then I ask this. Do you remember? No seriously do you remember? Because I do.
I remember going to 1.12 AV and it was “RUSH TO END DOWN LAST TOWERS KILL BOSS” and that was it. Nothing else. There was no social interactions that were being brought into the battleground because of an element of the battleground. People just said “follow the group” and that was it.
In events like we saw with 1.5 and 1.8 you had to work together. The team that won was the team that utilized everything in the game. And to do that they needed for form social interactions to communicate what to do and work together. It was a need, not an easy option.
Later down the line Ion brings up the debuff limits. He mentions that the original limit was a technical limitation and not a design based one. He argued that because it was not design but technical that he felt more assued using the later limits compared to the original.
I’d argue that the changes made between 1.5 AV into 1.12 AV are in fact most definitely design based ones. 1.5 AV was an entirely different design. One we cannot access anymore. One that will always be remembered and missed by the majority of the FEW that got to experience it. Yes FEW got to. How many of those “rare vanilla players” that remain even got to experience it? Johnny who joined during 1.6 and didn’t get to lvl 51 till 1.9 likely never saw the inside of 1.5 AV. The original AV design was a battleground design never before created and not since then recreated in any game since then. It belongs in this museum piece.
From this point I will leave Ion’s presentation. I could probably find much more to use but I believe I’ve made my point on design philosophy. I will now however debunk ALL of the points you’ve made in this thread. I say this respectfully, not disrespectfully.
Improvements by what standard? Are they improvements that overall benefited the experience of the player that fitted in the Vanilla/Classic feel or ones that streamlined the battleground to be quicker and easier? This automatically would be going against the concept of Vanilla.
Too hard to kill? Are you sure? Honest question. Because by 1.12 our gear got better and we were stronger. I’d wager “too hard to kill” during 1.5 is much different than “too hard to kill” by 1.12. And too many NPCs? Why would there be too many? This is a battle, not an empty field we should be running beside each other. The Alliance and Horde would have generals and captains specifically commanding that their side of the lands be heavily defended, if both armies rush by each other with no issue which is exactly what we will see with 1.12 as we did back then, then it is no battle. In fact, it’s just a single raid boss in an instance. The uniqueness is which side can kill their targeted raid boss first? Especially when we have 1.12 gear. This means that AV will be a cake walk for the extended time if it is lined up as 1.12.
Encouraged and supported by who? If we get stuck in a turtle maybe, but when the only need, as you mentioned, was to kill Drek or Vanndar then you just needed to be the first group to get there and get the leader prepped to kill. I seriously feel like you are undermining the ability of players set in 1.12 gear.
Different design does not make it better design. I am curious about this balance though?
So? Gross? I’m digging into pig bellies to get pig livers and peeling out murloc eyeballs at lvl 13 in westfall! This game has far been gross lad!
As a finishing statement I will say this.
It was said that this was meant to be a museum, an art piece of gaming history. To preserve something that forever changed the future of gaming. I feel that ignoring part of that creation, part of what made that work of art as such, something that can also never be experienced whatsoever again outside of this one final chance, is a bad idea and poor decision making. I also want to restate something I said MUCH EARLIER in this thread on Melaned.
The differences between 1.5 AV compared to 1.12 AV are a literal mirror between Classic and Current. 1.5AV took longer, gave more challenge, required more communication and had more immersion. 1.12AV was easily rushed, required less communication, less work and felt more PVE oriented in that one could go MANY AV runs without even facing a single opposing player.
If you ask me the choice is clear. 1.5 Alteric Valley is by far the best representative for having a full Vanilla/Classic experience. At this point I ask is if 1.5 AV or 1.8AV data is still intact? If it is, please, give us this. If it is not and thusly is not reproducible then just tell us. You’re not to blame, we understand mistakes were made 12 to 14 years ago. To finish this post however I do want to thank for you everything you’ve done up to and from this point on, I want to compliment you and your team on this great work. I will never forget it for the rest of my life.