Alpha Wolf/Physical build seriously underperforming

Do you know what indefinite means? And you really are just being ignorant saying range is a gameplay change bro. You want to call people a troll yet you want to say the range of something changes gameplay lol.

No, people take PW because it hits so damn hard. You can get 1mil damage off it from one cast… The haste is second.

… You don’t play enhance do you lol. You get ONE LB out. ONE. The point of haste increase is to hope for HH procs…

Again this is over your head… That isn’t even NEAR the context of what was being said. It isn’t even what was being talked about.

You must be new to the forums, She’s very well known for YEARS in the Shaman community, on forums, discord and especially when it comes to PvP. You seem to the one looking like they don’t play enhance not knowing that certain talents modify the damage on abilities and all even when told by multiple people.

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Nope sorry. For one I know who they are and they are a fanboy who regurgitates information. They are an average pvp player who likes to think they are better than they are.

Had a long conversation before DF listening to them complain Enhance would be crap because discord says so lol. And literally DO NOT CARE if they post in discord of follow a discord. There are tons of idiots who do that lol. Even after 25% nerf I said we were still fine and nope the sky was falling yet we were still A-S Tier… Was wrong there.

Argued with me about PW has NO merrit in PvP and no one serious would take it… Yet it was taken by tons of top players… Wrong there

Argued Frost Shock wouldn’t be meta… Wrong there

Well sounds like you can’t read lol. I flat out already explained I WILL NOT take wolves into consideration because they are not up. You are the one who doesn’t understand why we take EB stating it was because of wolves.

Thing is you are just as bad. You want to play mythic but you are crying over you doing a complete crap build. Should I cry and ask for changes if I don’t want to use any capstones that it isn’t viable and needs buff?

You just lack the understanding of how things work. You lack understanding that no matter what there are dead talents. They can have a dps difference of 5% and they will still be dead… People will ALWAYS take what is higher.

I just did a HOV where alpha wolf was pretty damn high on my meters. It works well with the build I gave you. People don’t take it because it is crap. People don’t take it because they run elemental… Elemental is just below in AOE than physical. It is a lot higher ST. SO a good balance for Mythic plus… Take elemental since it is a jack of all trades. I mean I finished my last run with the build I gave you at 86k. That is extremally good. Physical doesn’t need any changes besides DW lower CD so can use it every pull.

Also bro

THIS IS 100% WRONG!

Physical build doesn’t mean ALL or MOST your damage is physical… Elemental build is built around LL.

You really just don’t have any idea how mythic works or how to look at builds. I gave you one which has INSANE synergy. You honestly want to sit there and complain like a child because “it doesn’t have ascendance”.

It isnt going to happen. They are not going to do any changes or move things around to make ascendance a choice for mythic because anyone who understands it… Will never take it.

Yes indefinitely…meaning it increases indefinitely. The 50% duration increase stacked with every use. If you were in the discord you deride so much, you’d remember things like people posting screenshots of flame shock with a duration of 7 days. It stacked, indefinitely.

Edit:. Also due to this * Cata-Logo-Small.png Patch 4.2.0 (2011-06-28): Now also causes Fire Nova to add 3/6 seconds to the duration of Flame Shock auras on targets that Fire Nova damages.

Read about it from other players yourself: Infinite duration flame shock? - Shaman - Wowhead Forums

22 minute duration, cause it indefinitely stacks

And yes range changes gameplay. That’s the whole current thought process behind why ret is getting range increases not only to their abilities but also auto attacks…because range changes gameplay. I already pointed out the example.

Example:

If you don’t need to stay at the middle to protect flag node and can do it while defending/attacking a side base, this is different gameplay than needing to focus solely on one area.

If a warlock could chaos bolt from 80yd away, it would definitely change their gameplay as you would just see them all standing a football field away to do dmg.

You are using gameplay interchangeable with rotation. I am using gameplay with how you play the game. In both situations (yours and mine) players are playing it differently due to increased ability range. (Not to mention an 80 yd range on the bridge arena would make warlocks a nightmare cause they could target you anywhere from high terrain, again changing gameplay).

I already stated previously I got my timelines confused on when this occurred (cata vs WoD)

If you are only getting on lb out per pwave, you need to spread lava lash better. Every target hit with flame shock gets struck by that “one” lb, and the haste increases per target hit…meaning you want to get as many lb targets as possible to max your haste (flame shock, lava lash to 3 different, pwave a 5th = 5 lightning )

In single target the haste doesn’t just fish for hot hands procs

  • increase in white dmg
  • more hits = more windfury chance
  • more hits = more flame tongue
  • more hits = more chance for windfury totem procs
  • more hits = faster MWS

You might think these are minimal contributions but they all add up.

You are also gonna try to use EB and it’s buff provided as an example earlier, and then yourself ignore the interaction with pwave and lb. It’s the same interaction…we want EB because it’s high dmg and a buff (dmg which is increased when wolves are out). We want LB after pwave because we get haste per target hit by it (dmg which is increased by pwave).

But for such an all knowing Shaman player

But then you still argued about Fire and Ice and Elemental Weapons WHICH ARE TALENTS that effect EB, Elemental Spirits which has a great up time also effects it and depending on the key you can easily have 70-80% uptime. Throw in luck with DRE procs even higher.

The difference is you hate being wrong, you can’t be wrong instead you just argue and then take it personally and take it as an insult and make personal attacks.

I can keep adding quotes literally you are the only one personally attacking people while the worse you’ve been called is a Troll, Even people who are trying to prove a point against you have also agreed with you that mastery does scale better as Elemental Build, I’ve admitted it and so has Bubblies, but we know this can be adjusted for Physical Build with Stormbringer and WF procs.

You keep saying the physical side is a “dumbed down version”, yet I just shown you they press the exact same amount of abilities, EVEN more if you included Totemic projection as it is currently. Especially since Hailstorm is out performing Fire Nova and never picked in higher Keys or Raid. No response. I’d argue they press more keys as Windfury Totem you literally press every 20 seconds and even multiple times on the same trash as movement and kiting is a must in higher keys.

But hey why should Fire Nova be buffed right? Elemental Build is already performing great. So just leave it as it is.

You say how Great Alpha Wolf was yet it’s ability Spirit Bomb you didn’t even see in your dps when you did your testing on a dummy. Which is currently never ever picked in any content but argue it has its niche, then I asked it’s never picked what’s it’s niche considering it’s never picked in any content? No response.

You hate when people bring up other classes to justify changes as that’s comparing apples to oranges that you said several times, but then you go and do the same thing bringing up Warrior or Shadow Priest, so it’s ok for you to use other classes which are designed differently to prove a point but no one else can.

Arguement on this thread aside of what we think should and shouldn’t happen, you’re the only one actually insulting people for having an opinion.

Theirs multiple threads, even back on Alpha/Beta about these issues, this isn’t something new.

Their you go again, personal attacks, and btw adding range does make the world of Difference, look at the ptr for Ret, considering they are getting one of the best overhaul and class design literally by adding range, melee now has no hinderance on them, they keeping the exact same game play, yet now I’d go as far and call them mid ranged, with the most recent change adding 8 yds to Justicars Vengeance, literally 95% of the kit is ranged including auto attacks.

They literally can perform perfectly 8yds and beyond leaving only Diving Storm and Blinding Light the only abilities now they require them to be in melee.

Not sure if you played Ret yet on the ptr, but really you should try them out might give you a better perspective on things, but it’s simply amazing, who would of thought adding range to a melee class could vastly improve how it feels and plays, a melee class for over 18 years.

And people still arguing about those changes saying if we wanted to be ranged we’d play a caster…

All right bro. Just listen. You are just getting ridiculous. Your argument of a physical build is a single target raid build. You still have not figured that out. You are trying to argue you cannot do good damage with a single target build in a mythic plus that is all about AOE damage…

You’re trying to act like you know so much the builds but you are still very clueless. The fact that you said no one will take PW while they take DW… You are a complete idiot if you are in a mythic plus and you take DW and you do not take PW…

You keep trying to use the word synergy acting like there is no synergy in a physical build…

PW gives you 10 stacks

Cast lightning bolt 25% physical damage

Hit Doom winds

Hit alpha wolves

You now have around 40% haste which buffs your DW.

Using Crash nd Sunder massive uncapped AOE damage

Swimming in MS.

Casting CL almost non-stop from how much MS you have which is making your wolves do damage.

Every two stacks gives you one stack of MS when used.

Using Frost Shock for hailstorm refunding MS.

Every time you use chain lightning will surviving and same thing with crashing storm in every time you use chain lightning it lowers the cooldown and increases damage of crash lightning. And since you’re swimming and malestorm which is generated even more over the elemental build, you get wolves even faster and going back and forth between those two casts it’s constant AOE uncap damage.

That synergy is completely unreal. That is why that uncapped AOE is insane but you would not know because you have never tried it because you are fixated on try to run a mythic plus using a single target build and then complaining that it sucks…

Like do you really not understand that. You are seriously arguing over a single target build is not doing enough damage for you because you do not have the fore. Thought to understand what a mythic plus is and what you have to do to be viable…

A physical build does not need ascendance… You are just taking a physical build saying it needs it because that’s what you see on guides, but you’re not smart enough to understand you’re looking at a single target build.

You wanted a physical build. I gave you one and it works for mythic. The only thing you will have lower single target.

Now if you don’t understand meta, let me help you understand that. The reason why shamans won’t use it is because there are so many other classes that already do. Massive AOE they can take lower AOE for a big increase in single target. For most bosses in a dungeon I can pull over 70k. With a physical build it’s going to be in the 40s and 50s. So if I’m running with a shadow priest and a monk who can AoE and do high 200k to over 300k damage, there’s no reason for me to have more AOE
i can go for a single target build.

Now this allows me to not have to use sunder for my Doom winds to get more damage. I actually can hold on to it and use it for a AOE interrupt. Which gives me more utility.

So honestly just get over it. Your idea is never going to work because ascendance is more of a single target spell and it does not have a place in mythic Plus. You enjoy it so much. Then keep using it and go into raids. It is a subpar build and you’re trying to for some reason change the single target build into a AoE build when we already have three different AOE builds.

And you apparently don’t even understand the physical build because you said it has no synergy when it has even more synergy than elemental…

So seriously, stop whining and learn to play the damn class. You seriously have two choices:.

Physical-Uncapped AOE physical build which has insane synergy but lower single target

Elemental- lower AOE higher single target

And single target bill to an AOE build saying they should be within 5% of each other… Like how dumb does that sound. At that point there is no single target and there is no AoE build. You have zero experience to even try to compare each build. You have never even ran a actual physical AOE build. And realistically I’ve already ran it three times just to try something different and my overall damage twice was averaged to what I normally do and one time way above how I normally do.

“the way it is played”

Dang… you right, getting additional range on your abilities doesn’t change the way it is played.

We absolutely most definitely are 100% not currently seeing paladins change the way they play due to having increased range on abilities in 10.0.7.

You are 100% right, adding additional range to abilities including A LACK OF NEEDING LINE OF SIGHT TO POP ORIGINAL FIVE NOVA doesn’t change the gameplay.

You were proven wrong about:

  • modifiers (by multiple people)
  • flame shock stacking indefinitely (by multiple people, read the FACTS I posted)
  • claiming you didn’t say mastery affects elemental damage (legit can’t get your own story straight)

Having a physical spender that increases physical damage, would help both builds…but it would help the physical build more and isn’t a bad idea to add into the game.

You are the only person who has resorted to personal attacks, chastise the community for trying to organize and discuss (the discord), and largely are hostile in all your interactions (when I view your forum history).

No one will disagree Ascendance feels bad as is. No one will disagree it shouldn’t be a 3 min cooldown, when things like Avenging Wrath is 1.5 min. Ascendance should be a meaningful cooldown beyond its tacked on on-use burst. The whole ability needs an overhaul. But that doesn’t mean people should not want it to be useful for specs.

DRE is already used in the PvP spec, which is the physical spec.

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Ahh yes, so literally calling every Shaman pushing 20 keys and higher are complete idiots for not going into Doomwinds.

Makes total sense, ohh and they must be fools not going into Alpha Wolf aswell, as it’s insane uncapped AoE especially for fortified right?.

I don’t think you understand even on Tyrannical they run the exact same build, and yes, they don’t go Doomwinds, Alpha wolf and DRE.

I’m not sure where you are getting your information from, but this isn’t 2004 anymore, you can clearly see top performing talents and what people are running cause they simply perform better and synergise better.

I even said,

It still doesn’t change the fact, that Doomwinds isn’t picked nor Alpha Wolf.

Even if you have a look at the Top performing parses in Raid, by a multiple shamans literally Doomwinds was only run on Terros and only by a few Shamans the rest literally ran the same build regardless of the raid boss excluding Doomwinds and performed just as good with one less keybind pressing Doomwinds.

So M+ for Tyrannical and Fortified, they don’t run Doomwinds, they all must be fools not seeing it’s potential, they don’t run Alpha Wolf, they must be crazy, am I right? It does insane AoE!, and in Raid literally less then 5% ran Doomwinds regardless of the encounter, and that 5% who ran it on was on Terros and the others ran the stock standard build used in M+ and Raid, it’s literally the same build, did just as good as those who choose Doomwinds on Terros. Even surpassed its dps in some logs, but that could also come down to player performance, but at that high lvl I’d say they are pretty on point.

None in M+ or Raid opted for DRE or Ascendence, none in M+ opted for Doomwinds and none Alpha Wolf. The same build they all use in M+ regardless if Fortified or Tyrannical.

They all must be idiots yeah?. These min/maxers, Top Performing Shamans, many actually write guides on Shamans for very reputable websites, must have no idea what they are on about.

Clearly Doomwinds and Alpha Wolf are sleeping giants that no one but you realises it’s true potential. They definitely aren’t underperforming, no, that’s crazy talk.

Imagine not picking Doomwinds and Primordial Wave together. But hey logs, parses and Raider IO are all incorrect.

Nothing needs to change yeah?, no buffs, no slight rework on those abilities not being picked, everything is clearly working as intended.

You are so annoying lol. It doesn’t change anything!!! You had to make up a scenario that would NEVER happen to say it changes. “I sit at MT and spam FN because it is indefinite and will never be dispelled”. Then your proof was a target dummy… Not a player running around with a 22min FS on him.

Then if you want to have the REAL conversation… This discussion about FN build a year ago was about… MYTHIC. Guess what… SAME PLAYSTYLE.

Or are we seeing different playstyle because the entire tree is being redone with abilities… Which ones seems more fitting…

Legion feral druid at start had like 20 yard range for rake before it was changed. I ran around in RBGs and BGs applying rake with massive yardage. Then blood talon rip rinse and repeat. INC nerf to range… Guess what. Still did the exact same thing… Gameplay did not change one bit. It was the same gameplay just happened slower.

With your dumb scenario, you would have to say Enhance would run it spread FS then run out of range and spam FN till DoTs were dispelled then run back and do it again… That is a change of tactics. Gameplay doesn’t not change.

Want to use the dictionary again to see what indefinite means? I mean if you are going to try and use the definition of a word. It has a timer and can fall off. Just like it can today. In order for something to be indefinite in your example, I would run to middle of EOTS spread FS and it would never fall off or be dispelled. Sorry bro by definition it isn’t indefinite. But yes lets post a screen shot of a target dummy as proof of gameplay.

This entire time I have said mastery buffs elemental damage… Did you read anything lol. That was the whole point behind elemental will scale better because mastery buffs ALL our elemental damage. Even going back to a year ago man, you said the same thing. You kept accusing me and this other guy of saying things that never existed. Just like you did earlier in this thread and couldn’t even post what you claimed I said.

Or are you trying to say mastery doesn’t affect elemental blast…

Bro no it is about people like YOU. You ALWAYS drop discord like it is the bible. That is your “proof” to anything you want to say. In the discord or XXX posted in Discord this is better. You were uptalking these “top theory crafters” who are constantly wrong lol. It happens every xpac lol.

Like a month ago on Facebook 3 guys were discussing how “hard” enhance is. Then stating you even have to track your wolves for buffs because it changes rotation. Then after I said nah you don’t need to track wolves… IDK what I’m talking about, I’m not in the discord. People act like it is some elite club for the top .1% of players. It is just bigger nerds. It was funny after they were proven wrong, deleted all their comments.

Enhance is the best example for DF. The “top” build for mythic and raiding that was being pushed early, isn’t used anymore.

Yet still remember your comment. Who should we listen to, rando on forums or top theory crafters in discord. LOL.

I don’t think you are actually reading or it is just over your head. Physical already has upcapped AOE. I already said I was doing more damage with the physical mythic plus build then I was with elemental.

Gamba raid build is #1 for raids
Physical has uncapped AOE and does more AoE than elemental (depending on your tanks pull)

So why does there need to be a physical spender to buff physical damage?

Do you even run Mythic Plus honestly? Did you even try looking at builds and test them YOURSELF on a dummies or in dungeons? If the answer is no man just stop responding. Unless you are going to do another hypocritic stance where you tell people doesn’t matter what they think about PvP because they don’t do it.

Unless you want to derail from alpha wolf and physical builds for mythics.

He is saying alpha wolf and physical are behind… DRE/Ascendance or ST raid builds. He is using a ST build in a mythic and then crying it is behind because he is using a terrible build.

Then home boy even said this…

So he is hinting he is a top 1% player running Gamba in mythic plus… Not happening at all. You can tell he doesn’t even know how to use alpha wolf correctly because it does an insane amount of damage where I said I was averaging 1mil damage a min with it on dummies.

But yes lets defend someone using a terrible build and have it buffed ignoring we have other builds (even physical) that works extremally well in the content he is crying about. And in raids it is the go to build lol.

No I’m hinting that all top players, in M+ and raid don’t use it, I even questioned Jaxshamthree himself, literally the number 1 Enhance shaman currently, YOU DONT GET BETTER THEN NUMBER 1, and he even said Alpha Wolf is bad or how he actually said it “ it’s crap, Elemental Spirits does more dps output.”

Logs and all prove this so called UNCAPPED AOE, that you tested on a dummy is never used yet you still argue, the pros are calling it a bad talent and not worth picking yet you say it’s the best and they must be playing it wrong for how good it is…

So even the pros have it wrong, you seem to Completely ignore so many facts I’ve put forward, dance around the subject and your only rebuttals “but on the dummies it did good”… seriously.

So you telling me if literally the top players of the spec are saying how bad it is, they are all wrong, they are all fools not knowing how much damage it can actually do, hey you did test it on static dummies so it’s full proof facts right?.

Ohh please link, I’d like to see where it says the 2% difference between enhance talents, as this is the issue we talking about.

See physical build doesn’t go into hailstorm, they can’t afford the talents too, how can you go into hailstorm and primordial wave with Doomwinds and elemental blast and alpha wolf, you can’t?

He’s number one in keys… haha pushing 27 keys mind you. He said it’s crap and elemental spirits does more dps.

I’m serious you should check out Jaxshamthree stream when it’s up, he literally takes time to speak to the community and actually answer question. Was pleasantly surprised. Usually you watch them and the chat is an after thought. He actually doesn’t run Windfury totem either in the keys I watched.

But if the top players in keys 3400+ IO mind you are saying it’s god awful for AoE, you are literally the only person saying it’s great, borderline OP with its uncapped AoE.

Listen I’m just calling you out, you saying Doomwinds is run with primordial wave, plus hailstorm and you get alpha wolf, that’s impossible. You simply cannot invest that much especially how you mention it goes with legacy of the frost witch and crash lightning, theirs not enough talent points to do what your suggesting.

It’s impossible, primordial wave is a 4 talent investment alone as you’ve mentioned previously to get the haste buff that works in tandem with Doomwinds, which you’ve said repeatedly, then you can’t fully invest to get alpha wolf while keeping the legacy of frost witch buff and Doomwinds after going into hailstorm and elemental blast which you’ve also defended with a passion.

It just doesn’t add up what your saying…

So your saying he’s been carried to 27+ keys in just a 5 man group to 3400+ IO? Your comparing a raid to a mythic key, that’s apples to oranges.

But you just said they were doing Alts? And in a raid environment. You keep bringing gs not even mentioned, you talking about in m+ I bring up facts about in m+ then you go on some weird nostalgia trip about raids, please stay on subject.

I linked a whole thread from wowhead talking about how the old fire nova changed your playstyle. I linked a video to people farming trash using the old mechanics. But you are right, I had to make up things that neve rhappened.

No, you are seeing a different playstyle because they are getting RANGED attacks. The mechanic of builders to generate Holy Power into spenders that deal damage isn’t changing. Damage is being shuffled around, with some new abilities that EXTEND THE RANGE OF ATTACKS so they aren’t as penalized for being so immobile.

So for every PvP meta that is quick vs. slow, it must be the same gameplay. The fact that you don’t need to be in melee range and at 20 yards changes how you are applying rake. You can literally sit at a distance. I understand that you feel pressing the same buttons in rotation is all that gameplay is, but I promise you the distance you deal dmg also changes the gameplay. That’s why there are entirely different roles to deal damage from: RANGED and MELEE — because the gameplay changes depending on where you stand, along with what’s expected of you in certain fights (Range often times deal with different mechanics in Raid than Melee — hence different gameplay experiences).

Tactics are gameplay. The same way your class rotation/priority system/mechanics are also gameplay.

The gameplay for Warsong Gulch is different from the gameplay for Arathi Basin is different from the gameplay for Alterac Valley. All of them are entirely different gameplay experiences that you play different ways, despite hitting the same buttons to kill people.

Crazy how the definition of gameplay uses the word tactical…

I’ve literally posted tons of sources of proof in this conversation that don’t involve anything from the discord. But keep living in your fantasy world.

Yet in a conversation about mastery, you said…

who is the one that can’t read?

It might be, but that’s entirely RNG dependent. People run elementalist because it performs better on average and isn’t subject to RNG

Proof: Warcraft Logs - Combat Analysis for Warcraft

Warcraft Logs - Combat Analysis for Warcraft

Number 1 meaning of players that actually care about pushing dmg and uploading parses. If you are capable of reaching these heights, then you should do the same. You can even click on these players and see what they run. I only clicked the top 5 for M+, but they are all running elementalist.

Again, if you are capable of doing this, please upload your logs with your specs that are better, and put your money where your mouth is. Til then, I am going to go with the data over some no-name from the forums.

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/area-52/xeoaledk

He’s performing at the top 1% :joy:, he’s killing it in heroic.

He’s not even running the build he’s so passionately defending either… BUT ITS UNCAPPED AOE! Are you crazy!

To THEIR keys it would be depending on how they pull… What part of that do you not understand lol. It depends on dungeon and pulls. It is uncapped AOE which means it will do MORE damage in AoE depending on situation. Do you still not understand the difference between them?