That’s one of the reasons I support these two. Why anyone pushing for an allied race would push for it. It’s not our fault you don’t share our opinion. Nothings wrong with what we’re doing, so I see no point in your argument. It’s a simple yay or nay.
Edit: If your minds already made up, what’s the point in trying to convince you any other way? It would be like arguing with a wall. It would yield no results.
The entire point of arguing lore and pointing out things is picking apart words. You have to be very precise in what you say, otherwise it comes off as, well, what it did. I’ll ignore comparing LF undead to San’layn entirely for the purpose of lore sake. In reality, there’s not a competition–I brought it up because you said “instead of San’layn”. So, instead of sticking onto that, I’m going to push San’layn aside and focus on why I personally dislike LF undead as an idea.
This is why:
"This is one AR I don’t support at all, and hope never gets added in, personally. It compltely undermines the actual sacrifice any undead went through and essentially says “look, we’re touched by the light, we’re better than everyone”. No burning from the light with all the benefits of undead? Hard, hard pass. Not to mention, again, it’s just the annoying “light is perfect and redeems those that need it” narrative which, in my opinion, is terrible writing. You’re not enduring any pain or being noble by using a magic type that burns you. No, you’re copping out.
Anything that made it less black-and-white, like in Legion where the light actually had more depth than just “oh look at me, I’m a mary-sue”, would be thrown out with this concept, at least in some way. Again, it’s saying “Well, I’m blessed by the light, don’t get burned by it, and redeemed, hah there’s no drawbacks!”" --from another thread
To me, as a player of Death Knights, Lightforged undead seem like a cop-out and destroying any sense of “you are what you can be, just because you’re not bathed in the light doesn’t mean you have any less value than anything else”. Due to the term: “Redeemed”. It means, typically, that you did something wrong and are lesser, until you ‘got better’. The whole point of undead to me is sacrifice, being controlled as a puppet, breaking free, then having to face your monsters and continue to fight for your world (in the case of undead that are good.)
If Lightforged undead do not destroy that concept, and continue to treat light as a tool and just another form of magic, though, I’d be fine with it. I really don’t want undead players to be shoved under the bus though and be coined as “all evil and puppets with no conscious” because that’s not what they’ve built, undead are diverse like the living because they got bits of their personality back (depending on the person, and again this isn’t for all.)
Noted and that’s fine, apology accepted. I’m used to having mud thrown at me and people twisting what I actually am trying to do, and it gets tiresome. Really, really tiresome. I’m glad that isn’t what you meant.
Specifically, I’m on the fence about night elf worgen. I could be convinced that they are a decent choice. I was opposed to vulpera at first, but I support them now. That said, your original post provided nothing about them that made them anything more than worgen with a slightly different backstory. That just doesn’t interest me; I need more than that. It’s part of why I posted actually, because I wanted to see what else you might offer.
In general, I dislike arguments. Arguing opinions is ridiculous. Neither of us is ‘more right’ than the other, after all. Rather, I’d like to discuss it. We don’t have to agree to discuss something. So if you want to talk about San’layn I’ll listen and provide my own opinion. But, I am more interested in the concept of night elf worgen and why you think they are an interesting and unique idea. If you are unwilling to do that, then I suppose I’ll just leave disappointed.
While I agree in a theoretical sense, ultimately there are a limited amount of allied races that will be added. I am more strongly opposed to adding allied races past a point than I am concerned with what types they are, to be honest. With 13 races, we’ll have 1 race for each class (including the inevitable new class next expansion). Going beyond that will make the system feel incredibly bloated.
This race would be that thirteenth race. So for me, it is a competition between the two… or whatever race would take their place. And I am opposed to another elf race as I feel we have too many as it is. Now that said, while I am opposed to San’layn, there are worse options out there. One of the worst arguments I’ve seen are for demonic races such as the Eredar. At least in the San’layn’s case, they have some vague ties with the Horde, regardless of whether those ties have been severed.
I understand how you feel about them, and I can actually sympathize to some degree. It doesn’t bother me quite as much as it does you, but I find that kind of writing boring. In arguing for ‘redeemed undead’ I am hoping that they are deeper than that.
When I said “not quite undead”, I am thinking of undead that are brought back with the light, but are still undead. This is as opposed to being brought back with the shadow, which naturally makes them vulnerable to the light. They otherwise have many of the same weaknesses.
I have seen a lot of arguments for ‘thin humans’, and I think that they could possibly be implemented through this race. Instead of undead that are rotting away, they would be pale-skinned humans of a lighter build that were, most likely, brought back to prevent Sylvanas from doing the same. Such a resurrection would require them to be mostly intact, in theory, making it so they are nowhere near as common as forsaken.
Your argument that “we’re just goodie goodie” is understandable, but off the mark. They aren’t holy or noble or not suffering through pain. They simply are a different type of undead, similar to how death knights are different from forsaken. Most likely, they would suffer from shadow in the same way normal undead suffer from holy… so there’s that, too.
Either way, this is largely conjecture, just as your post is. We know next to nothing about them. But I’m curious and hopeful that they would turn out to be more than just a “we’re the not-undead undead! ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
”.
To me, ironically, San’layn are the antithesis of that. The most evil, vile, and sadistic race on the face of Azeroth that is eager to betray their allies on a whim if it gave them power. Forsaken have a very questionable moral compass, but San’layn literally don’t seem to have one at all.
Worse yet, their individual class types seem limited. If Blizzard doesn’t want to add hero classes to allied races, that hurts them even more. Adding San’layn without them being able to be death knights? Ludicrous. While you could argue that they can adjust their vampiric abilities to simply apply vaguely to any class, would that work well? Every case of San’layn played out their vampiric tendencies to a dramatic level. San’layn mages almost exclusively use blood-related magic. There are no san’layn warriors, really… they are all blood death knights. And so on. If you just have those roles play a backseat on weakened racials, what you are left with… is a vaguely vampire themed high elf race.
Your argument about redeemed undead feeling generic is understandable, though. Perhaps that race would be better suited to the Horde, just to add complexity to them (Calia siding with the Horde because she didn’t want to be brought back? Sylvanas offering a different kind of undeath to those who don’t want to be Forsaken?), and to ensure they have to make more difficult choices.
I understand that your idea of undead is that they escaped being controlled as a puppet, and yet… anything that is undead, ultimately, is undead because of someone else’s intervention, often against their will. Especially if Alliance tried to do this, could they really consider themselves better than Sylvanas, regardless of whether these “lightforged” undead suffer in the same way the forsaken do?
PS: I enjoyed seeing your own insight and reasoning on San’layn. I don’t mean to make this a competition between them (despite what I said earlier), though, so if you want to focus this on the San’layn I’d be fine with that. After all, it isn’t like these are the only two options, and San’layn would be competing against all of them. Given the thread, it would probably be more respectful for me to focus on San’layn. I leave it up to you as to where you want this discussion to progress! ![:smiley:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
In terms of story…the reconciliation of a people thought to be lost to the beast inside. A chance to take back a place in the world. A cause worth fighting for.
We’d also be making interesting stories within the Alliance. The possible conflict Genn would have with these worgen. Remember, though they weren’t direct and were either under the influence or control of Alpha Prime, they did terrorize his kingdom and silverpine forest for years. Though nelf worgen are worgen, I can’t help but feel Genn and his people wouldn’t be a little wary or hostile toward them. A culture clash during the middle of the war, certainly a means Blizz could use to differentiate these worgen from the worgen we play. The Alliance as it is is united, but you seldom see them deal with the issues of the Horde. It would be an interesting take storywise, because as an allied race, there would be some reprecutions. Something I believe we should have got with the void elves, but was summarized to in the Stormwind church with NPC’S either politely or blatantly telling you you weren’t welcomed.
If you wanted a dark Horde like race on the Alliance, then nelf worgen would be a reasonable choice. They’d be a group seperated from those they had once called kin, no longer being realized as night elves, but a mistake in their history. And with Genn and his people breathing down their backs, they’ll be reminded constantly of the horrors they’ve inflicted. As a nelf worgen, you’ll battle constantly with the beast inside, but fight to prove you are more then just that. The very reason for becoming such feral creatures finally coming to fruition…to save your people, and secure a future.
Which could lead to what brought them into the faction war to begin with. We’ve seen what Tyrande was willing to do. Perform a ritual that made her into the night warrior, which could have killed her, and weaken her people further. She was willing to risk everything, who’s to say another night elf doesn’t feel the same. You recall Belysra Starbreeze? The very night elf who created the scythe of Elune? Well, she could very well lead to the questline in recruiting these worgen. Reason being could be the death of her child Ishala. Ishala is one of the elves you rescue as Teldrassil burns…if you saved her. So far, nothing points toward her making it out alive of the tree. Belysra in rage, grief, and vengeance could request the aid of the Alliance champion (You), to aid her in undertaking this task she knows Malfurion and Tyrande would refute. Reason for her defiance, the Horde took her daughter, her home, her people…they took everything. To her, the only way to get back at these monsters would be to send monsters after them. Hence you begin a quest to restore the minds of these worgen, who will no doubt swear their loyalty after being lost to the beast for a thousand years.
There’s a bunch of different ways you could go about this. This is just one scenario. Malfurion could suggest bringing these worgen to the faction war. Thousands of them sleep in the dream, if they simply found a way to restore the soul inside the beast, they’d definitely be a worthwhile ally. Maybe Malf or Broll Bearmantle hatch a plan to convince Goldrinn to use his power to bring these worgen to the Alliance. Maybe a new artifact is created to free the minds of these worgen. Or maybe the scythe of Elune still has some power in it. (Xal’atath still had some power in her, it wouldn’t be a stretch to think the scythe might still be a viable option.) Or maybe the old gods are trying to corrupt these worgen, bringing the worgen back to their senses to be used as their minions. We could fight the old gods to liberate them. Or these worgen could have simply mellowed out after all this time, and we have to convince them, which should be easy considering their families had probably gone up in flames due to the Horde.
There’s a bunch if story routes this allied race could take. I’ve already listed their possible abilities in the original post. If you’d like to read more, I could arrange that. As for how and why they’d be different from the worgen we play now…well…they are the original worgen. Being night elves and having affinity to nature could have given them abilities regular worgen wouldn’t have. They’d also spent quite some time isolated from the world. It’s definitely chanfed in the last thousand years…as they probably have. In all that time in the dream, they could have embraced what they are. Cast off most of their culture to make their own. Their beliefs would still revere Elune, but they’d worship the ancient Goldrinn in even higher esteem. One thing is certain, they’ll definitely stand out from the worgen we have now. How much so could be anyone’s guess. These are just a few examples.
If none of this works for you check out Spellbreaker with these.
I think it’s pretty awesome.
Makes sense, and that all comes down to opinion too. I respect yours and while I disagree, can see where you’re coming from. Personally I’m of the idea of: “the more the merrier”. We haven’t yet seen the cap on ARs though, but it’s fair to assume we’re approaching it for sure. I don’t like talking about things like it’s a competition myself, however, because it just sometimes turns into people going at each other’s throats and not really focusing on the main point. Clearly, as our conversation has progressed, that’s not the case, thankfully. But yeah, in the end, it really is up to what Blizzard has to say and one will be happy, on won’t… or neither, of course, if neither get added in. Or, any other AR for that matter.
If this is the case, and how they’re built, I’d be fine with it. I don’t see myself as ever playing one or really liking the concept all that much, but I also wouldn’t downright hate it like I do now (for the reasons I gave). If it truly is just another magic type being used for resurrection, and not a way to say “well, we’re now redeemed and therefore if you don’t take our path, you’re disgusting, vile, and just plain evil”, then it’s fine.
And you’re right–we have no basis for it, either. Both of us have gotten different ideas from how they were presented. Yours would make sense, and I think would be taken much better than what I thought they were being presented as–which would be alright. Also, another reason why I brought up “MG for the Alliance” would be if they added paladins for this particular race but threw them onto the Alliance. It’d just be a bit unfair, I feel like, I dunno.
Like, they added void elves to the Alliance, yeah, which are a Horde model. Then, a modified Alliance model to Horde. But none of them can be a class that the original models can’t, if you catch my drift. In the end it’d be up to lore, but yeah I’m thinking in terms of gameplay with that statement. Not lore.
Right, and that’s where our views and ideas for how things could go in the future conflict. To me, since San’layn have free will, they have the capability of going on a path just like Death Knights and Forsaken. They were the most loyal of Kael’thas’s followers and died for their city to protect it. The story is quite a tragic and good one, to me, anyway. They died for their city only to be raised and used against them under the control of the Lich King. Cunning elves brutally destroying many of the living–but what of them upon Arthas dying?
I feel like they very well could gain personalities back just like the other intelligent undead, if you know what I mean. “They have no home” was said by Rohkan in the Alliance War Campaign. Dreven did lash out at the forsaken in the end, but I saw it as an act of desperation, a last-ditch attempt to stop the Alliance and fulfill his task.
Now, I could be entirely wrong, too. I’m giving suggestions on how the story could go, based on the patterns I’ve seen with other undead, those being Forsaken and DK. Like I said, intelligent undead do have free will, and we could get sections of them that intend on protecting their people like they originally set out to do. An antihero story, just like their DK and forsaken cousins. Appropriate, in my eyes, as an ally to the Forsaken.
In the end, we’d really need to see more of their story and what they’ve been up to. Are there enough left to even qualify? We don’t know. Who are the major players? What would they do, what can they contribute? Quite a bit, theoretically, but again–right now, the story is stagnant. We know nothing, and could never know anything. Do I hope the story is expanded? Yes, of course. I don’t know if it will.
I’m thinking San’layn would be added when DK are finally open to ARs, which Blizzard did mention might happen eventually. This would mean that they wouldn’t be added for a very long time, which is fine. As for other stuff, I think of it like how they did forsaken or void elves. We have zombies of different classes, and we have elves of a particular type with different classes. The racials would be vampyr themes, and the biggest kicker would be how Blizzard would make them look different.
I would hope they make these twisted, vampyr abominations look different from regular elves. Bat-like ears, every tooth sharp (like goblins), wings (very unlikely but people have really wanted this, and boy do I wish it was more possible), and pure red or black eyes. Claws, too, for sure. With San’layn, I feel like there’s a lot of elbow room in terms of what they could do with the models. Right now, they either use modified night elves, or the Blood Elf DK models. There’s so much they can do to make them look monstrous, beastial, and scary. Blood magic does very dark things to creatures, as we’ve seen.
I personally am fine with multiple discussions, they’re engaging and good to talk things out in terms of how we feel about concepts ‘xyz’. I’ll even offer alternatives to San’layn, as ideas, even though obviously San’layn are what I want the most.
It’d be cool if:
Yes, more Werevolves and Vampires please Blizzard!
Also, how can someone say “more elves” about San’layn. They are hardly representative of just run of the mill elves where that might be applicable.
You lost me there… So Nigh elf worgen would be bad because they wouldn’t be that different, same for san’layn even if both would be on their respective faction bot somehow holy undead on the other faction than undead would be great??? How do you want us to take the 2 first argument seriously if you came up with worst idea like holy undead for the alliance.
How can we take you seriously when your reason are about lore and you end up saying that a whole race should be playable when only ONE exist in game???
How does Gilneas worgen have to do with ally? How innovative!
Bingo!
The only thing that makes me wring my nose at this … night elves worgen thing, is that they are not physically different from the existing worgen!
Never went!
There is nothing to make them different from the worgen of Gilneas or those that are scattered throughout Azeroth!
Nothing except they are night elves and not humans!
I do not really see that it would bring good for the game or the lore!
But after we had voidbelves of the horde in the alliance, if it happened I would not be surprised!
We are already being threatened with junkgnomes, so why not with a worgen model that is no different in anything from the existing one?
Well, I do not have any arguments that would prevent this!
It just looks like chunks of tomatoes in the tomato sauce!
Dude, I really don’t see why you should be against nelf worgen becoming an allied race. Most of the current allied races share the same model, the only difference is in their cosmetics and racials. The only real new rigs for allied races are the kul’tirans and zandalari trolls. Even so, they are just more of the same races. Nelf worgen would be no different in the current trend for allied races. They’d have looks and options Gilnean worgen would not. They’d have different racials, it’s possible that the worgen curse could affect you differently depending on your race. We’ve only ever truly known the one’s we play currently. Nelf worgen wouldn’t be all that ridiculous. You’ve already made your complaints with our current allied races, but it doesn’t make sense to deny this option if people want it.
Haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.
Just ignore and move on. Although not my favorite option, I do like your suggestion and wouldn’t surprise me to see those ARs added.
If some people bothered to check out the first link listed at the top of the thread and in the OP, they’d see there’d be visible differences to night elf worgen to regular worgen; People who haven’t bothered to click it and claim they’d look the exact same, go do that before actually making any complaints about it being just another ‘elf race’ ![:roll_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
Young man, I am not against that addition! I’m pointing out what I do not agree with or dislike about this idea! I may not die of love for the idea but do not let it stop you, even because I may disagree, as long as I do so politely!
More wolf than worgen, if anyone had been interested in paying attention!
Or at least I read the comics!
Same old model! Like me!
I frankly doubt that Blizzard was going to use any concept like this, shown on this site!
Well, I certainly hate everything that is bad done, bad implemented or just a placeholder!
A consolation prize!
And the Allied roots of the Alliance are pretty shallow in all these factors!
But if the devs make a new model, retroactive to the release of the model used since the Cataclysm, for the night elves so that their worgens are actually at least slightly different, then any reluctance to them, imagining that this is in fact a major obstacle , will disappear.
If that is your intent, then it’s understandable. But as I said, the current trend of allied races lean toward them looking similar to the core races. They are their own thing, but there is no denying that they simply expand on the current races we have. They don’t have any real reasons to look that much different from what their core counterparts are in terms of race, because they are just more of the same.
Look I’d love if Blizz made new rigs for nelf worgen and San’layn like they did for kultirans and the zandalari, they really could. But as things stand, in both lore and the quick, cheap, and easy assets Blizz can utilize, there is not much reason for the company to make these changes. Making new rigs seem to take time, just take a look at the kul’tirans and zandalari. They’ll add some tweak to differentiate them from regular worgen in cosmetics, that is a certainty. Lore on why they are different is already established, and can be implemented into the story with reasons as to why their own racials are different from the worgen we have now. But in terms of looks…I’m not going to complain for what has happened to most of the allied races. At least they were added to the roster, that’s mainly what I’m hoping for. Maybe things will happen differently in the future, but currently this is what we got, and these are the two allied races I’m advocating for.
Ideas I like for a worgen model allied race:
Night elven worgen
Forest trolls like the bosses from ZA
Sethrak
Ideas for an undead allied race I like:
San’layn
Undead high elves (like dark rangers)
Undead night elves(like dark rangers)
Undead drakkari ice trolls
So you think because they can’t add a few cosmetic touchups like they did with the Highmountain and draenei like I literally point out in every thread, that this can’t be a thing? I mean I know you’ve got a thing against no more elves but yeah, sorry to tell you this, this game’s playerbase is mostly elves and it’s a widely wanted race.
Point being the way I view this functioning is the exact same as our worgen do or they can PLEASE COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH THE TWO-FORMS IDEA. (because frankly I think having that on night elf worgen would be completely stupid), and make them look a bit different in terms of cosmetic; Just because they don’t have anything on the above like you pointed out doesn’t mean they can’t make it different.
As once again; Highmountain = Recolored tauren with moose antlers and cosmetic tribal paint (which you ask me should be an option for all tribal races, trolls, tauren, worgen etc.) Before you ask, there’s other worgen that actually adorn themselves with tribal markings. See the Bloodfang in the Garrison as your guards or various other ones lying about. Pretty sure the ones in darkshore also have tribal markings at the base.
Lightforged = LITERALLY JUST RECOLORED DRAENEI WITH TINTS AND SHINY HOOVES/TATTOOS. Again, this is literally something that was a copy cut and paste for them. Just a few model art textures which is something they could do to these guys. Hell even get rid of the hunch a tiny bit.
anyone claiming that San’Layn have no connection to the Horde… probably forgot that the San’Layn are Silvermoon elves who went to Icecrown with Illidan and Kael’Thas to defeat Arthas. They failed, and were resurrected. Considering they have free will now, they are as much inclined to join sides with the Horde as the Scryers were in BC. Both the Scryers and the San’Layn can be written off as Blood Elves who were under dark influences for a time, but rejoined their Blood Elven brothers and sisters down the line. I’d rather see an entire myriad of Dark Elves playable. Between Dark Wardens, Dark Rangers, and San’Layn, you have a lot of classes and flavor available here and it seems like that’s where the story is going anyways. It would just be the Mag’har situation with multiple clans, but with dead elves. Imagine a Gilnean warfront where Sylvanas is about to lose to Genn so her dark elves all make some sort of ritual, uniting them as an allied race faction, and giving the Horde enough strength to pull out a win or at least avoid destruction. This is current story, not just some @$$pull. The San’Layn probably want to get away from Icecrown where the LK has the strongest chance of re-orienting them. Have them bring Naxxanar or Naxxramas with them so the Forsaken can have a new faction hub.
I don’t mind more elves as long as they add something genuinely new and different.
Then again if we’re talking about Night Elf Worgen that can’t shapeshift then they’re not even really an elf race then, they’re a genuine monster race. Although, I think just making them like Night Elves in concept would be boring. I’d vastly prefer they be Nightbane in concept and theme, because at least that would add something different than the current Gilnean Worgen who already have deep ties to Druidism and suffer from being too much like Night Elves in how they are written.
If you wanna get technical, everything that isn’t human is a ‘monster’ race to us.
With a few changes they could easily make this appealing, and it’s like I said before; All allied races are literally just reskins of previous races. I have no reason to doubt that they wouldn’t do the same and it wouldn’t be saberon because that would make no sense. Same applies to saurok. Just because they share the skeleton doesn’t mean it’d become an allied race.
Night elf worgen in this manner fit the area behind it. Throw a bit of tribal tattoos and stuff on them, make them slightly different and you got another allied race. The reason this race shouldn’t have two forms is because they willingly became what they were to combat the satyr threat that was going on at the time. They just had a vengeful night elf leading them who wanted the death of Malfurion.
Not all of them willingly turned though, hence why two forms and their questline wouldn’t be easy. Remember that the curse spread like wildfire when Alpha Prime and his group began infecting other night elves. That’s why so many sleep within the emerald dream. Hence why two forms would be necessary. Even with the current worgen we have now, it had been necessary to perform the ritual. Two forms is more then just a mechanic, it was the symbolization of the Gilneans restoring a part of their humanity. Only part of it though, since the form is not a permanent one. Genn had shown this, our own worgen have shown this, their human forms are not who they really are anymore. If you and the other Gilnean worgen hadn’t gone through the ritual, the potion restoring your minds would have eventually worn off, and you’d revert to a feral beast.
The same would go with nelf worgen. Only the difference would be in how their minds are restored. The one’s who turned willingly, they’re the one’s we’d have to convince. They’re the only one’s in control of their minds, they were all druids, and they hate Malfurion. But if we could restore the minds of the nelf worgen still in the emerald dream, you’d have hundreds, possibly a thousand willing souls to the Alliance cause. Not only that, it means these worgen would have more class options.