Seriously dude, make your own thread if you have your own ideas. You’ve made the case as to why you disagree, and frankly I find that reason to be a dull one. And I’d wish you’d make your case on your own thread instead of cluttering up this one.
Survival has always been the name of the game for the Horde. Unlikely allies are likely to be forged. Blood elves and nightborne are proof of that. Not only that, but the races of the Horde are proof of a band of outcasts that would put their differences aside, even though they didn’t even trust each other. Trolls hate elves and the undead. The elves felt they had no choice but to ally with the Horde, they even went as far to ally with the trolls, a people they had been at war with. The undead needed allies to keep the races of the Eastern kingdoms from destroying them, at one point they saw the other races of the Horde as canon fodder, so they could plan their own dark deeds. The orcs were war mongers that needed allies to fight against the Alliance. The Horde has no core identity, that’s why they are who they are, and why they are easily divided. Different reasons for joining means different points of views and beliefs. If anything the San’layn would fit right in with the Horde. They can be what they are without the scrutiny of the Alliance bearing down on them. If your complaint really is about elves, then know this. The second most playable race in WoW are blood elves. A majority of those who play horde play these elves.
San’layn as a whole don’t need to be evil any more than Death Knights do. In fact, the San’layn story is just as tragic as the rest of the Blood Elf backstory. It is quite easy to have Dreven be the evil San’layn, who as part of the AR recruitment mission is killed by his lieutenant or something who objects to his treachery. She becomes the new San’layn leader, they join the Horde to defend Silvermoon (which is how they died and became San’layn in the first place). I mean, really, this is very simple writing to do.
EDIT: And the Forsaken were not originally evil, lol. The minute they regained their minds, they went to Varian Wrynn and asked to join the Alliance, just as they had been members of it in life. He attacked them instead (Arathi Basin), and so their Queen joined the ‘safe-harbor-for-misfits’ Horde.
Thank you, for describing what I couldn’t find the words for myself. The Horde is interesting because they aren’t universally on the same page as the Alliance races.
I readily admit that I’m a sucker for ragtag bands of misfits.
True, but they still conducted dark experiments. Not to mention the wrathgate, the sacking of Gilneas, killing their enemies and raising them as undead, what recently happened to Undercity and Teldrassil. Even if their intent and methods aren’t evil, they have been ruthless, cold, and generally shady. I love this race, I really do, I play an undead rogue as an alt, but no matter how justified the means and tactics are, some of these acts are nothing short of monstrous. Don’t think the Alliance were that far off in their judgement. Imagine if they did accept the undead.
given all of those things happened BECAUSE they were rejected and almost wiped out by their literal family members, yeah. Its like saying Native American attacks on white settlers justified the cavalry slaughtering villages, even though the cavalry slaughters happened first. Saying their actions to defend themselves from genocide proved that the genocide was worthwhile is stupid, because those actions never would have been taken if someone hadn’t tried to kill them all
Still, they had found a group that accepted them. But with or without the betrayal, the kind of worldview you’d have as an undead would still be terribly skewed. Not to mention their burning hatred for the lich king. The wrathgate would have been a certainty no matter the faction they joined. Not only that, but that anger, hatred, and bitterness toward their own existence would have boiled over into the faction war. They’d likely apply the same attacks on the Horde as they did the Alliance. Warcraft 3 Sylvanas made it clear their stance on their existence. What were they if not slaves to that curse.
Yeah, but there’s no such thing as an “evil race.” The Horde seem to get that well enough. And the San’layn fit pretty well with Sylvanas, the Forsaken and the Blood Elves. Death has some evident side-effects on those who return, but it doesn’t make folks irredeemable.
As to the Horde, I don’t think they’re evil now or before. It’s war. War is evil. Sylvanas did what she thought (and had reason to think) would work to decisively end a precarious relationship between the two polities. People died. It’s not called “World of Warcraft” because we piss around and play tea party.
RE Dreven, yeah so it’s a question of prudence. It might imprudent to bring the San’layn (and specifically Dreven -RIP) into the Horde. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense. It might unsettle some leaders and most players, but it’s not like they wouldn’t be an asset. (And, mind you, both Saurfang and Baine have likewise killed members of the Horde for their own reasons, and yet for some reason a lot of the player base seem to think those instances were fine.) At least Sylvanas could count on them to actually carry out her nastier (but effective, decisive) plots, instead of some Tauren or Orc mucking it up for dumb, vacuous reasons like “honor” (which she thinks has no meaning to a corpse) when the future of the Horde is at stake. She’s warchief and she doesn’t care about Horde identity. She cares - ostensibly - about winning the Faction War finally and decisively so that the Horde can live in peace and prosperity for generations, instead of groveling at the feet of the Alliance starving for food. (That’s her narrative, that WAS Saurfang’s, and it’s the feeling of the general population of the Horde.)
To add on to your point, the Horde is not evil. But each race within the Horde has at one point commited an atrocity. The orcs, the attempted genocide of the draenei, the first and second war, the bombing of Theramore, a small group of orcs who supported Garrosh’s reign who tortured captured prisoner, WoD. The trolls, the Amani with Sen’Jin, the Zandalari’s attempt at trying to rebuild their empire in 6.1, trying to ressurect the thunder king in MoP. Blood elves, their own prince Kael’thas had turned against them, and tried to summon the burning legion to their world. Undead, as mentioned in the comments above. Goblins…greedy little buggers that’ll do anything for money. Enslavement, inventing destructive weapons of war, stabbing you in the back all to make a profit. The tauren…only bad egg I can think of is Magatha Grimmtotem.
But there you go, none of the races of the Horde are any less clean then the San’layn…except maybe the tauren, but you get the idea. I’m sure the Alliance has dirt to, but the races of that faction seem to share a more universal mindset. It’s only now that they’re accepting all comers. They can’t afford to be picky with their very survival at steak.
Right yeah. Agreed. Nightborne too, given Azshara. (Though that would apply to the Night Elves as well I suppose.)
Horde is about survival and new beginnings, even if those beginnings aren’t… followed through the best, or have to keep happening again and again. I like that about them. I don’t think the Alliance could ever accept the San’layn. Horde definitely could. And good on them for it.
Just calling on the logic you two use as to why you think nelf worgen and San’layn shouldn’t be allied races, which are terrible ones. These two as allied races are technically worgen and undead. Some people still think of them as just more elves. If they do, then why don’t they consider the core races the same? And if they really are elves, then what’s the issue with that? They’re diffrent enough to constitute themselves as their own group. They’re a people outside the conventional term of elf. I see no issue with their inclusion or how being what they are means they shouldn’t be playable.
Because the core races of night and blood elves were the first ones added, and are hugely popular races already. Personally I felt there was more than enough elf representation even before nightborne and void elves were introduced.
Anyone claiming that’s technically not another elf option and actually an undead offshoot is just lying to themselves. It’d be like saying vulpera would actually be a worgen subrace because they both belong to the canidae species family when they’re obviously based off of the goblin model.
The Vulpera also have more reason to join the Horde then Alliance. And as I said, even if they are still considered elves, what’s wrong with that? If the elves really are a popular race, then you’ll have thousands of players loving these two as allied races. Where’s the downside?
I’m sick of seeing and hearing about elves, and I’d rather have something that actually looks different and offers some more racial variety than what I’ve seen of allied races so far.
Then that’s your opinion on the matter. I can’t change that no matter how I put this. Even if these two are well received, you wouldn’t like it. Overall, it’s what will bring in the playerbase that Blizz will consider. You may get Vulpera for instance, but they’d likely be a goblin allied race next to the mechagnomes. Night worgen and San’layn are as likely as any to make the roster, that’s not an issue if people love them.
I’d rather get more elves that have preestablished lore and already existing ties to one of the factions than some brand-new garbage like Void Elves or Junker Gnomes.
Found this track on a fighting game I love. And with it, I imagined a spectacular sight to behold. Couldn’t help but wonder what this would sound like replaced with elven chanting and orchestra, with a slight tone of eerie but chilling undertones.
Two beasts fighting in a faction war. They carry the rage of not two, but four seperate peoples. After finding a place to belong, the other see’s a threat. Someone who would destroy everything they worked for, everything they hold dear. Though they have become monsters, the pride and rage of their former lives, of what they had once been boils to the surface. A wild, brutal, animalistic ferocity takes over one, and a dark insidious rage takes hold of the other. For their people, for vengeance, to abate the bloodlust that stirs their very beings.
Junker gnomes if they become an allied race, would likely be more akin to Lightforged. A race that’s been established, but also way too similar to another playable race, simply an “upgrade”.
But yeah I still wouldn’t prefer them over anything new.
What does this have to do with the thread discussion, or even Warcraft’s story? It seems just a strange post, and I say with no intention to bully or insult.
Make San’layn into ugly, scary, Nosferatu-inspired vampires that look like Orlok instead of r34 bait goth elves. Much more closer to Wretched, and hey, that makes them a proper offshoot of Forsaken. Then again they could also resemble Nightfallen but with more Blood Elven origin.
As far as Night Elf Worgen are concerned, I consider that to be an extremely bland and unfulfilling allied race concept. Worgen by themselves are already plagued with being just furry Night Elves, why not add something that enriches the race’s fantasy instead of overbloating it with one singular stereotype? In my own opinion I’d rather see the Nightbane Worgen in Duskwood become molded into a proper allied race option, providing a stronger shadow theme to Worgen culture with their Dusk Runners, Shadow Weavers, and Tainted Ones. Heck they could arguably even still be Night Elves in their background lore, just much more sinister and dour from years spent in the Emerald Dream and in the cursed woodlands of Duskwood.
