Eh, I want to give the benefit of the doubt since he said that was an in-character post and that as a player, other solutions should be explored instead.
I think that’s what the whole “Grom killing Mannoroth” and the horde helping defend the world tree was supposed to be; it was meant to be a rejection of their bad past to work toward something positive. Though as far as I know, I don’t think demon influence actually injected any sort of cultural habits; it was just supposed to be their blood rage.
But that seemed to become an inborn trait when WoD landed.
Shamanism is another weird spot, because it was more than just speaking to elements. It was communing with spirits in general, including their ancestors. It had as much to do with the afterlife as it did with nature, but the former got pared back somewhat in Cataclysm and now Shadowlands seems to have little to do with the class.
Like, I know the horde wasn’t squeaky clean or anything, but I feel like the parts for “good monster races” were already there. Blizzard just didn’t seem to want to do much with them without reasserting bad stuff first so the story could re-remind everyone that the horde has potential when it’s not busy strangling its own neck to kill that side off.
That’s a very fair-minded thing to do and I respect it.
Yes, it was a redemption arc for the Orcs. But it was incomplete. And no, the demons didn’t directly institute any culture, they just created a situation that would inevitably form its own culture. (do not forget the manipulation of the Shamanic leadership and chieftains before the introduction of demonblood corruption, a corruption of their culture would likely have to occur first)
That’s actually a big sticking point for me. The redemption arc was cool, it was inspiring, and it gave me goosebumps. But look at the context of that event. Grom arrives separate from Thrall and immediately starts attacking/fighting Humans who also arrived in Kalimdor(including a Gilnean regiment!). No real way to know who started it. Thrall shows up and berates Grom as he helps fight the Humans. Grom is ‘punished’ by being sent to Ashenvale to provide lumber for the new homeland, where he promptly tears into the Night Elves living there and starts cutting down Ancients.
Whew, better not rehash all of WC3. What I am saying is that the ‘redemption’ of the Orcs is the result of one Orc killing a major demon. That’s… not a redemption. Giving up your addiction and killing your dealer/slavemaster doesn’t change how your people view the world or their morals. I must repeat that the story arc of the Orcish Horde being not evil is very much incomplete. It needs development that would require pretty severe changes to the Horde itself. But I absolutely think it should happen.
I LOVED WoD, obviously not for the content drought, but for the setting. Especially for my Draenei. However, it was very easily construed as a slap in the face for Horde players. Blizz: “Lulz, even without demons you guys are JERKS!”
AGREED x100.
The Tauren were always a hope for moderation in the Horde for me. But it seems that they have taken a backseat all throughout the expansions, and even Baine is kind of disappointing. I miss Cairne, the old badass. I disliked what they did with his character, and hated when they killed him off.
Good stuff Sarm. I really hope someone smarter than me can come up with the solution to the issues Horde and Alliance players face.
Just to note.
This is the dude that wanted the Alliance be racist and then be vilified for it. Even though the Alliance has a boat load of justified grievances to be mad about.
This guy has no problems with racism, in a way he seems fascinated and engrossed by it because its a constant topic for him.
I hardly think it is something that triggers him since he seeks it out in almost every topic he is involved with.
Did Blizzard’s marketing department miss that Doomfist is a leader in the villainous organization in Overwatch? Like his character reveal is a prison break, how do they make that mistake?
Like I’ve said before, I think it’s the newer crop of writers who suck at any sort of nuance.
The OG WoW/Warcraft devs were able to spin a decent story of redemption out of Thrall and the Horde, and showed actual heart, even when the hatred and scars of the past hadn’t healed.
The modern devs refuse to do anything more than vaguely gesture in Baine’s general direction to show anything positive about the Horde. Even Saurfang had to “learn” a lesson about honor from Anduin… that he was outright espousing to Garrosh in Wrath a decade ago. Thrall’s been hiding from the world longer than he’s been leading the Horde in WoW, in real time.
Hasn’t Golden talked about her love for Baine being centered on his non toxic masculinity? Wouldn’t be surprised if Nu-Blizzard writes off the Horde (and WC3/vanilla/tbc Horde) as toxically masculine.
The big problem is the orcs were trying to bury their past and not actually try and admit/make amends. I recall reading Rise of the Horde and how there some orcs who just wanted to avoid telling their story.
We can see how Thrall deals with Garrosh as a microcosm of this problem. He told Garrosh the story of Grom but omitted ALOT of the darker part of it. Things like his father’s fall back into the use demon blood and by extension I think Thrall never told him about Jaina’s role in saving his father! Not once did Garrosh feel any remorse about attacking the city of the person who helped save his dad!
It doesnt seem like the did. From the looks of it Talon/Doomfist seem to genuinely believe trying to start conflicts will make humanity stronger. Obviously I don’t believe that and it is clearly their methods are appalling. Having said that, Blizzard has always been clear we are heroes of our own stories. Heroes of the Storm is littered with characters we would all consider villains.
Power is just power. Can be used for whatever intention. It’s possible to use PC for entertainment, or for crimes. As well as many other things. W3 marked a shift in a different direction. Big enough to be different, but not too bit to be unfamiliar to the orcs and push them away because of that.
IMO there was no inevitability in the events, just the devs bit more than they could chew.
Not directly related, but I actually went to read the article that C. Golden promoted.
Girls have always known they were allowed to feel anything — except anger. Now girls, led by women, are being told they can own righteous anger. Now they can feel what they want and be what they want.
And then I thought of Tyrande - Anduin interactions and portrayal in the story.
Like… IMO it’s not possible to make things like that up. To me it all sounds like “well, those things I call good are good, but only for selected few I personally like, the rest of the story will be bent to follow”.
Just as odd to me as “oh, a bunch of civilians, including children (children of a race that had next to no children a decade ago), being killed is whatever, but don’t you dare to touch an adult brother (and a commander of a fleet originally, not a random person who knows nothing about war) of a character I like!”
I think part of the problem is the ease of just using the “planet of hats” style of writing, where certain groups are dominated by certain ways of thinking. It is a shortcut for representing different cultures as it takes out a lot of the nuance.
It gets troublesome when certain races are given overly negative hats. And in this case, made even worse by suggesting having to learn to wear the absurdly pristine hat of another race in order to be good.
It’s really not a big ask. Nu-Blizz just has to put in the time and effort to actually give the Horde characterization that is something other than “Evil doer that does evil things to beat the Alliance” or “Mindless peon of the Alliance.”
