Alliance is Captain America & Horde is (not) Wolverine

Hey, friends. I asked Estus to post this for me in another thread, and he’s a swell fella and did that for me; but the more I dwelt on the topic, the more it bothered me. I figured I’d expand it, because hoo boy are we Horde not Wolverine.

`https://imgur.com/gallery/O2wTy

People bring up Metzen’s comment about the dichotomy of the Horde and the Alliance being similar to that of Wolverine and Captain America. Captain America is a boyscout, someone who tries to do the morally upstanding thing in a romantic revision of the 1940s: if you’re in trouble, Captain America will save you, and that’s a promise. Wolverine has never been that simple, and he gets muddier if you don’t read the comics. People think that Wolverine is just an anti hero (or perhaps an anti villain) that butts heads with folks like cap because of attitude more than anything else. While it’s true that’s part of Wolverine, the core of the character is that he’s a good man who’s lived a really crappy unforgivingly long life. This guy is 180 years old. He’s seen it all: the rise of humanity from wild campfires to nuclear powered city scapes. And with those city scapes came genetic testing and manipulation. Wolverine’s suffered some of the worst humanity has to offer, but despite all of that, Wolverine wants to do the right thing. The Horde was like that, once. They suffered fel tempering and enslavement by the Legion, but eventually broke free and tried to do right.

Take this comic, for instance. I have no doubt there are readers amongst you who think Wolverine had no trouble doing what he did. But this sort of stuff, the missions Xavier can’t trust to Jean, Cyclops, Gambit, or Colossus, he trusts to Logan. And to be frank, Xavier takes advantage of him a bit. Because no one else would do what Logan did to save the rest of mutant kind. And he didn’t just walk in and kill the guy. He brought beer, and a proverbial shoulder to cry on. He explained what happened, and why – not to be cruel, but so that J could at least have some peace of mind. Things always seem so much bigger, scarier than they are when you don’t know the whys or hows that they operate on. But at the end of the day, Logan has to live with the weight of what he did. There are entire plot lines about this that I’d be suspended for posting due to heavy alcohol consumption on his part. Logan is not a well off guy, but he is a good one.

Thing is, Nu-Blizzard either forgot this part of the Horde, or they never knew it. We aren’t the noble hardtack anymore. We’re just flat out angry, idiotic villains. Last Blizzcon, Gregory or whoever was talking with Golden announced to the world that Garrosh’s sins were because he was “the orciest orc to have ever orced.” He put the onus on his orcish heritage, like to be orc is to be evil. Nu-blizzard doesn’t see us as Wolverine anymore. We’re the Sentry and that sucks.

Now I hear you asking, “Treng, who tf is the Sentry and why does he matter if I’ve never heard of him?”
`https://i.imgur.com/KRYV3Ih.jpeg
(Here’s a picture of Sentry whoopin’ Wolverine’s butt.)

Good question. I’d have deleted Sentry ten decades ago if I had the supernatural power. Just delete the concept from having the possibility of being made. But, he’s one of Marvel’s (many) Supermen. Sentry is a guy named Bob Reynolds. Bob is an ordinary feller (maybe) who is an addict and a thief. He stole something he shouldn’t have, and used something he shouldn’t have, and the thing he shouldn’t have used allegedly gave him superpowers. Bob became the Sentry, an impossibly powerful blonde superman whose solution for almost all issues is one in the same: Carnage on the run? Toss him into the sun. Xorn? Excommunicado Sunnado.

So, you might be thinking: Treng, why’s your new marvel persona an addict with super powers, and why is that a bad thing? Well, beyond the fact that Bobby’s an addict, he’s also certifiably insane. And possibly(??? it’s unclear if it’s real or not) possessed by something called The Void. You see, the Void is basically one of the most powerful entities in Marvel (unless it doesn’t exist, then it’s still Sentry, just another personality) and when Bob turns into the Void, all bets are off. He kills friends, foes, old ladies on the street. No one is safe. And Bob and the Void argue with each other all of the time, just like the Horde. Blizzard can’t decide if we’re honorable or insufferably evil. If we’re the normal every guy on the street like Bob, or the inevitable, unstoppable juggernaut that is the Sentry (or the Void.)

Blizzard has us divided into three separate characters depending on what they need us for. If Blizzard needs the Horde to start a faction conflict, we’re the Void: An evil super power that the Alliance can’t possibly stop until… suddenly we’re Bob, and they can. Bob doesn’t have super powers, so the civilians of the Night Elf race can bend and break him, much less any of the Alliance Hero Characters. But Blizzard isn’t a Class-Five; they know they can only punish Horde players so far and retain their subscriptions. So, when the Alliance takes the lead in saving the world, Bob splits into the Sentry and the Void, with the Sentry believing he’s some righteous paragon (when he isn’t), and the Void being the Sum of All Evil that the Alliance and Sentry will seal away until, inevitably, the Void breaks free and it all starts again.

To sum it all up, I miss being Wolverine.

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Or more like, the Alliance and the Horde aren’t a SINGLE Hero/Anti-Hero/Villain/Anti-Villian/etc… but rather the whole damn marvel universe, with different characters with different personalities all working towards their chosen goals by their chosen methods.

If you wanted to go smaller scale, it’s like the X-Men vs Magneto and his followers.

Or you can compare them to Civil War, with two sides taking a stand.

But honestly, there’s no perfect comparison.

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I think it would have nice if we had any sort of a “hero” moment. A situation that calls on the Horde which makes the world value the Horde’s existence.

They had plenty of opportunities and they have all passed us by. A couple of upcoming threats are pretty Alliance heavy so I don’t think we will be rising to the occasion.

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Yup, this is the crux of the problem.

The panel you’re referring to was Golden (Blizzard’s main writer), Gregory (cinematics guy), and Copeland (the Loremaster/Historian of the dev team).

Those three people, functionally in charge of Blizzard’s story alongside Danuser, considered Garrosh’s fundamental problem was that he was just an Orc, and very Orc-y.

That’s it. The “fulcrum” race of the Horde has as their fatal flaw their own race. Their flaw is they exist, their culture.

And who is the “Heart” and “Best” of the Horde? Baine.

Useless, Noble Savage, Crying Indian Baine.

And who is the best orc? Thrall. Not because he’s the best Orc, but because *checks notes * he grew up as a slave, but loved his slavers, and was shown compassion by a Blonde Human Woman.

And who do we have as interim leader in reality while Baine and Thrall are off doing… stuff?

Lorthemar. A character so well developed that up until maybe the Thalyssra love story was usually referred to as “Whothemar” upon being mentioned.

This sucks. But that panel at least showed their cards. All their cards, at once.

x2

Here’s the panel to refresh everyone’s memory:

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Relevant thread for additional reading:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/i-feel-the-horde-needs-a-feel-good-moment-before-sl-ends/

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No, Horde (under Nu-Blizz) def fits Sentry to a T.

This has always bothered me to some degree. Thrall has been othered so hard, not only by Nu-Blizzard’s reading of Old-Blizzard’s lore, but by the playerbase. Anyone who has learned from humans cannot be Horde, which is the most ridiculous gatekeeping I’ve never heard of. People act like Thrall wanting peace makes him similar to Baine, who cuts off of a piece of his male sex characteristic --his horn – to mail to Anduin. The two are wildly different, but people see Thrall’s amenable in nature and conflate it with Anduin’s pet Baine. It’s infuriating.

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I’ve always found Blizzard’s comparisons of factions to Commic heroes to be off.

I mean, the factions consist of many characters and should be able to be summed up by their morals and their attitude into a single persona?

I have always found inappropriate and limiting, yes, even restrictive somehow.

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The Horde is nothing. Blizzard took everything away from us what makes us cool. The Horde council is now a puppet government installed by Anduin. The Horde would be better of deleted to get rid of the shame. The Alliance is the protoagnist of the game. Horde is just a sidekick. Delete the Horde now. That would be the best solution for everyone.

You should commission Patty to read that post for us.

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The World of Warcraft Playable Horde was NEVER Wolverine. The “Maker People” may have discussed WoW’s Horde being a Cross between one Marvel Hero or the other - but By even diluting it in a cocktail with others, it loses its quintessence.

They never knew it because it was not so.

The current WoW Horde is like Cyclops’s soul placed in Jubilee’s body - a spin off that few have been clamoring for.

I wanna be Moon Knight.

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`https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/561566855454523395/851253834440638464/moonknightspidey.png
You and me both.

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Will the Horde tears ever stop flowing?

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Constructive and helpful. Thanks Smallioz.

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I’ve been levelling a paladin recently through TBC classic and yeah, I definitely agree.

There’s a bunch of quests in the 1-50 Horde leveling experience where the flavor text is about doing something to be diplomatic towards the Alliance, but whereas Thrall was Diplomatic, Baine is submissive.

I legitimately don’t get how the current writers can’t grasp what made the Horde good back in the WC3-Wrath days. You’d think bringing in more actual writers would have helped, but the pet characters and storylines of the current crop of writers now that all the OG Warcraft devs have moved on are trash.

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Right? My favorite quest was in vanilla, and it’s what sold me on the Horde. At 50 or maybe 60 Thrall himself gives you a quest to save Moira Bronzebeard from Thaurrisan. Not kidnap her. Not ransom her. Not kill her. Save her and let her go back to Ironforge, because it’s the right thing to do, and it might improve relations between the Horde and Alliance.

Of course, it turns out that Moira’s not mind controlled, but all the spy intel suggested that she was. Riperooni.

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Will alliance mongrels ever shut their mouth?

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No problem.

The Muh Honor threads are just as interesting as the Weekly Night Elf cry sessions.

Night Elf Sentinel: Be careful man, I hear the Horde attacks with all sorts of random bull####.

Other Night Elf Sentinel: Please. I got them dead to rights. Now to-

The Horde: RANDOM BULL#### GO! (medieval siege weapons fire upon and hit a target several miles away. The entirety of the gargantuan moist tree struck immediately goes up in flames, with the city thousands of feet up on its branches having little to no time to evacuate its population despite all the impact points being way down at the tree’s base)

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Smallioz and Erevien both having their posts hidden from reports while I finish my breakfast on this here fine Juneteenth 2021

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