The way you talk about it, you make it sound like AQ is harder than Mythic raiding. It’s not.
To each their own. But you might want to look up the definition of “viable”.
"capable of working successfully; feasible."
Nothing about being optimal, more efficient, or expediently.
You don’t, perchance, run a warrior in Classic do you? I mean it would then make sense why you selfishly didn’t want to take a class with you that could roll on your phat lootz.
Hey… you do you. We’ll so us.
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never said it was. but gimping your raid adds unnecessary difficulty/
You go ahead if that’s what you want. No one here is stopping you. Most of us are just trying to help players not make poor class decisions. It takes a long time to reroll
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I played and raided in vanilla. Hybrids did heal, nobody said they didn’t.
I was just pointing out that people who say Rets can’t get groups or won’t raid or some equally silly thing are just trying to get people going.
There’s a massive difference between advice and hyperbole.
There is also massive difference between Dr Pepper and Diet Dr Pepper. Don’t let the papers fool you.
Again… I disagree with you…
Over time, I actually like to experiment in Late-stage of games…
Think of things no one ever plays, creatively try to make a Moonkin as powerful as it can be…
Make a tanking rogue, a Tri-spec Class, etc. etc.
The more time goes by the more I want to experiment with Unoptimized things… to make them work. I like creativity… I don’t like things being put in a box.
The more you put things in a box, the more inflexible you make the game, the more exclusionary, the less creative and less fun it becomes.
Again… i don’t care about what YOU want to do. But when you start alienating and shaming huge parts of the community don’t be surprised when the game dies because of it.
Again this…
Im seeing people complaining of ret pallies and ignoring warlocks in phase 1 are ubber trash… some of then not even getting 200 dps.
And why we do invite them?
Summons, Souls Stone, Healthstones…
Same for Ret,
Buffs, Divine Intervention, Blessings, Off Heals…
Also there’s spelladins doing well in this meta, ppl just dont know yet…
Constant top5 dmg… doing 350dps average which is pretty acceptable in phase 1.
No one is stopping you from going Holy Fire/Smite spec on a Priest, or Arcane Missiles on a Mage, but these things aren’t exactly difficult to parse in Vanilla due to the very simple mechanics and our ability to tally up all the gear. Slightly more oddball things like the AP and SP Paladin builds can also be mathed out, but I’m a Druid main so it isn’t really something I bother with.
But don’t get me wrong, these things will be bad relative to other specs, and while it serves as a curiosity, it falls under the novelty side of playing the game rather than the optimal side. And when folks present these ideas, they aren’t usually presenting them as novelties, they present them as legitimate alternatives that are just as good as the Real™ specs. The Shaman Tank threads go this route a lot.
Exclusivity isn’t a bad thing. I hate that it gets treated like a bad thing to avoid at all costs. RIFT did this upon release and ho-boy did it create a very undertuned and terrible game to start. You could be whatever you wanted with these massive 50+ pt talent trees that could be mixed and matched in all kinds of crazy ways… and… the content either stomped you into the ground because you had little you could do viably or you curb stomped it. The Devs even locked down hard on the forums doing any theorycrafting and broke addon support entirely to mask the info… but people figured it out anyway and folks were leaving because the raids were just super simple and easy (among other issues).
The game doesn’t die because people can Smite spam on their Priests or be first in line for DPS roles on an Enhancement Shaman, and telling said specs where they actually stand objectively isn’t alienation or shame.
“Don’t play what you find fun. Play what I tell you to or no one will ever invite you to a group.”
Sounds like good advice, I hope no one takes it.
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It’s clear we just have different values…
To me, the biggest factor in endgame is just having reliable players. I don’t care about the class or spec much.
Having reliable players that will show up and not be jerks is 99% of the battle in my opinion.
You can beat this game easily in any specs. That is not the hurtle.
To me it would actually be fun having a unique raid group.
It seems you just disagree with me that being exclusionary doesn’t harm to community… All I can say is, I guess we’ll see dude, we’ll see… Don’t want to say i told ya so.
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With exclusion comes the 22 sec Shaz kill on Warcraft Logs, so it isn’t always a net loss. We’ll see the same thing with TBC as people reroll to match whatever was ideal at whatever patch level they set it at. The foreknowledge definitely helps a lot.
If you’re having fun, continue to do so. The silliness with friends is why I play, but that doesn’t stop me from optimizing all the time.
Again… I never said you should stop optimizing… I just think you should be less exclusionary with other players who want to do something different.
Pass. I have more than enough people that aren’t trying to make true Arcane Mage a thing. There are a lot of people playing, they aren’t all going to be wanting consumables, optimized builds, etc.
No I think there is a clear culture of ridicule and control. You may or may not be contributing to it… but it’s there.
Yeah, but context matters. What does it mean to “work successfully” in a DPS role?
The problem here is that people are conflating a group being viable with each individual within it being viable at their role. Those are not the same thing. The group can be viable (capable of working successfully) while including an AFK dead player in the group. I don’t think anyone would argue that an AFK dead player is viable DPS. You can have a viable group despite having individuals within the group who are not viable DPS. This argument that people can down bosses with meme specs in the raid isn’t an argument for the viability of the meme spec when it comes to putting out DPS. It’s an argument that a group that includes them can be viable even though they are not.
Nope, I am playing a Night Elf Hunter currently on Classic. I will not be competing with Ret Pally’s on any drops.
Worth mentioning that I also played a Shaman in Vanilla. I was drawn to the class by a friend who told me about how much fun it was to Windfury crit with a big 2 hander. I was disappointed to learn that I wasn’t going to be able to do that at max level and I had to spec Resto.
I wish i could double heart this!
Welcome to the world of right and wrong answers. All paths are not created equal, enjoy your stay.
Nope. It’s more like, “If you want to DPS in raids as a Ret Pally or Enhance Shaman, you need to be aware that you will have to be incredibly skilled or many groups won’t take you and even then, you will only be able to put out as much DPS as an average player of any other melee DPS spec. If you aren’t incredibly skilled, you will have to spec as Resto to justify your place in a raid. If healing doesn’t appeal to you and you aren’t an incredibly skilled player, you might want to choose something else so you don’t get stuck in a role you hate.”
I absolutely wish someone would have given me that advice before I rolled a Shaman expecting to play enhance in Vanilla. Instead, I got stuck as a healer before I gave up on the class in late Vanilla and started leveling a Hunter.
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Warlocks do more dps AND
Their utility isnt able to be brought in healer form like druid/shaman/paladin/priest
Blood pact
Healthstones
Soulstones
Curse of shadows/elements/recklessness
If ret only brought might and kings you could argue their unique utility to the raid offsets their damage.
But a healing paladin brings it all too.
Thats the difference.
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