Viable merely means something will work/suffice.
Specs like ret/shadow/boomkin DO work, and it’s still possible to defeat encounters while utilizing these specs.
So they are viable.
Are they optimal? Perhaps not.
Personally I’d prefer having people playing optimally, but I don’t have any problems inviting the occasional meme spec if they’re a smart player.
Let people have fun - they just need to be able to be a team player and have a good attitude.
So you think that bottom 15 doesnt exist? That’s 35% of your raid that sucks at the game, that can’t play regularly or farm consumes or read guides to learn their class, in just about every guild. I think you’re naive not to consider that part of your raid in the equation. You MUST put them in the equation if you’re running a guild. Raids need manpower.
I dont think you understand the definition of viable. Anything that does 180 DPS to meet the checks is ‘viable’, but its not pretty.
If you DONT think there’s a revolving door roster at the lower end of every guild, well you haven’t raided in Classic. Even hardcore guilds have a bottom end that doesn’t really get better.
Again, the top parse from any Ret on Lucifron is 375.02.
The average parse at the 50th percentile (is that mediocre enough for you?) for an Assassination Rogue is 368.87. If we were to include Fury Warriors, their average parse at the 50th percentile is 401.71.
When having max skill only allows you to compete against mediocre players of other specs, then you are not playing a viable spec.
No… the topis is “All specs are viable” You are the one trying to state the obvious in some attempt to say they aren’t.
Ret Pali’s half the damage of Fury… Ok… agreed.
But can a Fury Warrior offheal? Blessing of Protection a healer until a tank gets aggro off them? Can they Lay on hands performing a miracle full heal?
Can they rez? Can they Blessing of Freedom a rooted healer or tank?
Come on man… Ret pali isn’t a meme spec… it is a viable spec. But again your face is buried so deep in BfA damage meter numbers you don’t even know what raid contribution actually means.
Viable is anything that does over 180 DPS, which is to say, all of the specs.
You will never convince retail/min/max people of anything. They have their mind set. If something isn’t tipping the scales, it’s not worth their time.
they are viable, it takes no where near perfect raid composition, especially those from private servers to beat everything in the game.
Only if you have other (better) DPS to make up for what they lack. That is the point.
It’s possible to defeat encounters with dead AFK players in the group. Does that make dead AFK players viable DPS?
Only if you’re trying to beat some clock.
This really isn’t the case any longer, so no, I dispute this from the onset. Vanilla-era raiding had absurd raiding schedules and anyone doing something casual like 3-days a week was considered a fairly bad guild… which is just absurd by today’s standards. Even the BfA guilds are tremendously reduced in how often they’re trying to pump out content and my former guild from TBC to WoD only does it twice, for 3 hours, and they clear almost everything.
It just isn’t the logistical headache it once was, so the compulsion to fill to 40 with whatever you can find isn’t nearly as prevalent.
Sure, and honestly having a few in the raid isn’t going to kill the raid, but people rolled in Classic with the knowledge of Rogue/Mage/Warrior superiority so the raid stacking is already a thing.
For long term stability, people know that rerolling isn’t the chore it once was and people will play how they play until they’re otherwise forced not to. That’s why people ran double Warrior MT/OT in Wrath like they had all of Vanilla and TBC until they finally got smashed on Heroic Anub’rekhan. Having a slanted/stacked roster only creates gear bottlenecks, nothing more.
Yes, and that is the only type of player that a skilled Ret Pally can compete with in DPS. Thank you for making my point for me.
Okay, and the ret is still beating them. You have 15 mouthbreathers, and a good player on a bad spec. The ret does more DPS. The ret is not the worst member of your raid. If you want to shave your bottom end and tighten the ship, you need to reduce the number of bads, not necessarily the number of memespecs. We’re talking 35% of the raid having a higher priority for replacement than the paladin. That’s really far from the ‘dead last’ narrative you’re pushing.
Annnnnnnnnnnd /thread
I’m sure you could clear molten core using a majority of meme specs. This phase of the game isn’t hard, and we’re a lot more knowledgeable about the game in 2019 where we can compensate for a less optimal spec.
I wouldn’t say that things are so tightly tuned in classic that the better dps have to “make up” for anything tbh. This isn’t retail where we have tightly tuned mythic raids.
The point is that people should be OKAY with inviting the occasional ret/shadow ,etc. to their groups/raids. Especially if they have a good attitude and are good players.
Personally - I’m playing Holy because I wanted to heal when I started WoW classic and paly is one of the best pvp healers. But that doesn’t mean I would shun ret paladins.
Keep in mind that every class brings different utility to the table. When I was leveling 1-50 as ret, people liked inviting me to dungeon groups because I could off-heal in a pinch if we got into a bind.
That is debatable. How bad we talking? It’s pretty hard to be bad at Frostbolt spam or Shadowbolt x5, life tap.
> That will always be preferable
Preferable to who exactly? The player who is paying his money to enjoy a game and play what HE wants?
Or too some min maxing raid leader whose opinion is of little consequence in Classic?
Play what you want, be decent at it, be a good member of your guild/raid… and you will have no problems getting raid spots and gearing out in phat lewtz.
You would be surprised. Classic is a game about preperation, not skill. There will be a lot of casters that suck. They have a 1 button rotation, but that still requires itemization and consumables, which they may or may not farm. Many players don’t have the time they think they do to farm, or they don’t care or have the personal capacity to look up outside resources for their spec.
Do you know how many mages and locks think Int gives you spellpower? I’ve seen a lot of very, very poor mages and locks.
Ret and memespecs are bad on a theoretical level, and bad on a practical level if the player is bad, but mages, while theoretically great, can be practically bad if the player is bad. Get your head out of theorycrafting and into the game. Reality matters more than preconceptions and theories. Player skill and dedication is the biggest variable in Classic.
Again, if you were in a guild that was good enough for this not to be the case, you’d be decked in epics at 60 already.
So, retail then?
If all you’re doing is spamming those things, you’re definitely doing it wrong.
No, those are correct rotations. Don’t give him ammo. Mage and Lock are that easy.