While I do fall more in line with Blizzard’s reasoning for borrowed power (new talents and spells building off each other expansion after expansion can lead to problematic growth), it is definitely true that they need to take the time to set a solid foundation for each spec.
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They could paragon system it like D3 did to fix the infinite scaling. Then you could just drop points into secondary or primary stats.
This way blizzard can still play with one off talents each expansion then add or remove them as needed. But the core of the class stays in tacked. Example trying brining back spinning fire bloosm this xpac… If it doesn’t work then remove it and try a talent that makes FoF stun again etc.
Bam infinite expansion power progression fixed. Send me my check blizzard.
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Here are my top three wishes for a future update to Mistweaver:
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Return of Chi
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Return of Eminence
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Renewing Mist persists on the target after jumping to another
I know these points have been stated, but I wanted to keep this thread going.
What else can I do to help Mistweaver? Is there another website I can go to to voice our concerns? I want to yell for changes, but I need to know where I can do that.
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Quick update:
I have quit WoW. I think the expansion is looking very stale and boring. I think the systems are garbage and Blizzard has their priorities backwards. They come up with these ridiculous systems to make the game feel interesting but in the end only make the game impossibly boring at the same time. They can’t really do much with all the new systems in place because of how complicated the interaction between systems are. Shadowlands is becoming BFA 2.0 and it’s written all over the beta. All Blizzard really needs to do is make classes fun to play again while creating more content. They don’t need to make complicated systems to make classes fun. Just focus on talents that are stale or boring/dead. I think Torghast is a great idea and would love for Blizzard to introduce more instances/raids while focusing less on these systems. (MoP says hello).
I currently find Final Fantasy 14 to be a more engaging World of Warcraft.
I refunded SL and stopped my sub. I also wont be giving my gold away or anything like that because maybe someday I’ll find WoW to be fun again.
I hope everyone who continues to find WoW fun to keep playing! Keep doing what you love to do. GL peeps.
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That’s a shame to hear but I’m glad you have another game to play.
I understand all too well. Ive played from Vanilla-MoP but since WoD onward, I find myself leaving for months, sometimes years at a time.
Good luck!
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When Tiger Palm gave 30% armor pen and Chi Explosion ignored armor nothing was very different from how all of the spec’s stacked up. Other variables play a bigger part than boss armor.
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LOL - Send me my check. This guy. GOLD ONLY
I kind of feel like character progression in PvE should simply be gear - not these stacking up the “decision matrix” things. Traits, essences, corruptions were just choices on that - covenants, soulbinds, conduits are going to be the same song and dance. Fix talents then maybe I can believe these extra systems will be good or worthwhile…
The core of the ongoing issue is they want to re-make a progression system with each expansion, thinking that was the “magic sauce” of Legion… When it wasn’t. Time, energy, and a SPEC-BY-SPEC focus is what made Legion work. Generalizing spec abilities to classes and classes to covenants and conduits (just like essences) detracts from that. But gear itself should be the system. Set bonuses should aid that shift of dynamic along the xpac. Nothing else is really required.
When you talk PvP, that’s a different animal. A 4D chess progression system can be developed there separately - I don’t think PvP talents should just “happen” but something you get to grind up and earn each season or xpac. That’s where the counterplay should happen - but counterplaying context (my M- build, my raid build, etc.) is not rewarding to me because so many other games do that much better.
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I wish you luck and hope you find more fun there, however for me FF 14 is boring play. WoW has its problems for sure, but there is no other MMO that comes close to the fun I have had in WoW. I wish you the best, I will be maining my WW monk for shadowlands.
As far as systems goes, there are some issues with them but they make the game interesting. In addition, they bring in a new fresh perspective for each expansion. If they just kept everything standard and the same then people would complain it’s dull and boring.
Good luck and I know you will eventually be back to WoW. Best Wishes and god speed.
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•Chi-ji rant•
Way of the crane was my favorite spell.
It not increasing dammy is less fun.
Having to give up statue and yu-Lon for chi-ji is a huge kick to the chi orbs 
It not having meaningful interactions with the damage portion of Fallen Order and Bone Dust Brew also doesn’t feel good.
Yes, it’s been reworked to have more synergy with the rising mist talent, but it was so much fun being able to crane and choose talents like upwelling for the mobile mini “tranq” or thunder focus tea for burst potential in m+ and pvp, it feels like that’s just what you have to take with rising mist for it to work. Which is cool, but not at the same time. It creates a line in the sand so to speak, are you a ranged mistweaver or are you a melee mistweaver, in bfa, it was less popular, but we could hybrid and create a situationally equipped healer.
I was able to play crane 9/12M and enjoyed every second of it. M Dres might’ve been the most fun, healing the melee on tentacles but kinda contributing dammy at the same time combined with ineffable truth and verse corrupts decreasing downtime and increasing throughput. Arena and pvp in general was hella fun. You could stand your ground against the edgy dh during world quests and potentially kill it, you could create burst scenarios in arena that at least at lower rank worked.
I’m hella still gonna try my hardest to make chi-ji work in SL!!! Not giving up!
But grr
•Revival•
Just kinda repeating someone’s dank idea, but adding a temporary stagger component to revival to give it some kind of raid utility besides pure throughput.
•Expel harm•
Getting abilities back is chill. Mad respect. But Expel harm feels so forced.
It’s pretty much kinda healing elixir but kinda not. Idk, the spec felt great without it. And good news! If it doesn’t get tuned, we won’t use it anyways, so I guess we can all just look the other way? But please no!!! 
•Jade Serpent Statue•
Please. Can we get a base line class fantasy ability. A defining, doesn’t change, this is part of our identity ability. I suggest giving us Statue, and bringing back the mobile soothing mist from wod to replace the talent. It can be impactful, it has a higher skill cap to get the most out of, it’s a fun thing to do /Kanye shrug
Come on Sway…
•Mistweaver damage/ lack of interrupt•
Yes, we are healers.
Does our back story not involve us doin dojo/monastery things and being a martial master or at least close?! How are we doing the least amount of damage among healers? We should be ready, talents or not, to throw hands!!! We should hella have an interrupt being all kung-fuuy! The same and only healer among the healers with and interrupt just so happens to also be one of the most important raid healers? Shaman utilized correctly is nutso. They have such a unique toolbox and we’re fighting for our niche with Druid and H Priest.
•Niche•
What are we?
We in my experience, we tend to start off kinda strong, and get weaker as the other classes scale as the xpac progresses.
All the while in competition with the H priest and the R Druid. Outside of anytime where Revival can help cheese dispels, it’s usually just a throughput race between us or availability. I don’t hear people say “ we need a mistweaver”
It’s we need need a shaman, we need a paladin. And not just this Xpac, but just in general. What can be done to give the other healers a similar desirability?
•More rambling•
More emphasis on the difference in martial styles would be lit.
The monk specializations are masters of different schools of panda-fu.
The attacks should vary up more for each spec, WW and MW both shouldn’t use the same physical attacks. And I’m being hella bias, but more emphasis on chi-ji and yu-Lon for mw. More Xuen for ww etc.
•Ground Effect Healy orbs•
Cool idea, never really worth it. Make it worth or axe it?
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Whenever (if?) monks get some design love (obviously not for 9.0…mayyyybe for 9.x…hopefully 10.0?):
Figure out a point to create the class fantasy around and then keep it relevant in every spec.
At the moment chi is a core mechanic of windwalker, but it’s just some naming in an exceptionally weak talent row for MW and BrM. If all specs have chi, then you just feed the resource into brews for BrM and strong ‘mist’ healing abilities for MW. Now I know what makes me a monk, and I know why my specific spec uses that unifying element in a unique way.
Brews are the core point of BrM (thank goodness that one at least hit the mark). They are sorta kinda a thing with MW and tea, though the lack of any depth makes it feel like a naming convention more than a cool class fantasy.
Windwalker has fortifying brew which is again, just naming. If brews are what make me a monk, give them strong flavor and give me some really cool ones for my spec.
I saw an earlier conversation with sides for monks being either more martial or more mysticism. I think at the moment they are more confused than either of those. If martial, WW needs to be less of a summoner and more of a fighter, MW should have core functionality on it’s melee abilities (problematic to make fistweaving mandatory, I know). BrM could stand to have a bit more complexity/decision making, so it could be tied with its fist and kick moves as well.
If Mysticism, infuse that into WWs actual abilities instead of just its pets. Give MW some interesting interaction or tricks with jade lightning/RJW. Passive components to celestials could go a long way: while summoned, the celestial is manifest and has all it’s power as a big CD, but while the summon is not active, the player is infused with a passive, lesser power that echoes the celestials. So, this jade/celestial mysticism makes me a monk, and the particular celestial’s power that I am constantly infused with makes me my spec.
Whatever the direction, the point is that a strong class vision can make developing strong and cool spec mechanics and abilities clearer. It also makes for more flavorful talent trees, and more mechanical depth. And ultimately it feels like I still get to play my character even if I want to swap to a different spec; because at the moment roll is the only thing that makes me feel like I’m still playing my character when I swap spec.
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I agree that monk needs a stronger class vision.
Alas that vision ended with the Legion redesign which was less about good class fantasy and more about what could be done to make it easier for people to play and won’t require much work for Blizzard to maintain.
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This thread is still going on? I just did a boralus raid target dummy 5 minute fight and at ilevel 113 i was pulling around 1700 dps. I’m sure this isn’t great, but I compared it against my 103 DH who was around 1600 dps over the same time. I get that WW has issues and I agree with the big ones (SEF bugs, Hit-Combo, & Karma, and mastery scaling), but it’s not a completely broken class. In trying the new BRM, I think it’s even better than before. I rarely even used my defensives (fort brew, dampen harm) because ISB was so strong. I like this new iteration better with a focus on purifying stagger damage and to empower celestial brew for big huge hits that might actually end up killing us now (esp magic).
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Commenting that BrM is strong while in a thread that is largely about WW and MW bugs and class “feel” doesn’t really help a lot.
And yeah, bump, this thread is still going on.
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I mean I get it, but it’s the same thing. If they haven’t fixed them by now after several years of screaming, what does more screaming do? If a blue named popped in and said, hey we hear you and here’s the plan to fix these things, then screaming has impact. But since they don’t, it’s just screaming indefinitely.
What has more impact is if everyone just stops playing WW and MW. That hits home. It’s saying you have to broken classes you’re supporting and the issues are too many for us to take, so we moved on. That won’t sit well. They keep band aiding the class to keep folks playing them…at least enough so they seem to be viable.
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I don’t know that stopping would help, I mean we haven’t been told not to play the spec yet. But considering how the devs feel about Demonology they might prefer us to all move on and forget about it. Then once no one is playing monk except people who don’t care how it plays they can basiclly ignore it without even having to hear about it. And we did get a blue post and they basiclly fake tossed the ball to distract us for a bit.
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I’m sorry, but you want us to stop playing Monks, and also stop advocating for changes?
I just don’t see how, as a business, you invest time and money into Monks if no customers play it and no customer says anything about it.
I think the best thing our community can do is try, try, and try to get Blizzard’s attention. Let them know there are lots of people who are passionate about this class, and make them realize we are worth investing in.
That’s why I love this thread. It’s like the only Beacon of hope I can see. And it is such a shame that its author, and one of our greatest advocates for this class, has been forced to leave. Doesn’t that make you want to yell for changes?
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Bring back brews. core for monks now we have barely any brews
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For Pyro!!! Bump!!!
Also, the obligatory: Bring back the option to melee combat heal, like MW originally was created for.
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I see your point. I guess what I was saying is that we’ve been telling about the same issues for years. At one point is yelling just yelling for the sake of yelling. If the folks stopped playing that would get their attention more. Of course I could be wrong. I’m not suggesting you don’t voice your opinion. Keep up the good fight. I’m trying our DH and Spriest atm.
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This is very true.
Im ok with the borrowed power each expansion as its something new to learn and new content to look forward to.
There will be people complaining either way…i see people keep saying why don’t Blizz just focus on standard talent tree etc people would be happy…well no, it worked in the early expansions but by now people expect more and as you said would get bored with a basic and stale system if it didn’t change in 14 years.
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