After hitting 2.5K M+ rating today

I think you are incorrect here to immediately assume there is no problem with ret. Well if it’s not ret that is the problem it’s literally every other class in the game. I did an AA on my main ENH Shaman I did 105k overall I’ve spent two months grinding out everyday almost 14 hours a day doing keys. I get beaten in DPS by someone who rerolled ret paladin the day before, bought a heroic raid boost, and joined my key. They were 406 ilvl and did 115k dps overall. It’s just a reminder to me that it’s all just random numbers that don’t mean anything.

If you did it with an Unholy DK you’d have gotten cooked even worse. Should UH be nerfed? Would be laughable. Some specs thrive in there more than others.

I don’t assume one way or another. We need a few weeks into S2 and the rings to go away first.

Should enhance be nerfed? The top Enhance in the world is 136 M+ rating ahead of the top Ret in the world, who is always the top Ret in the world. Still. Today.

There. Your argument is dead. Nerf Enhance. See, sounds dumb huh?

You could for sure nerf enhance and I wouldn’t be surprised, same as prot paladin, same as sub rogue, same as demo lock. Yes 100% they are OP. The difference though is you don’t have 390 enhance shamans joining +20 keys and doing 100k overall.

I have played with many UH dk’s in AA that have beaten me in DPS and that I have also beaten in DPS. It’s not just AA it’s every single dungeon.

I played Guardian for the entire SL, played some alts here and there, and never once did I feel like I do now with BRM. Granted I never hit 2.5K IO but I never wanted to, I never planned to now either but seeing how much stronger paladin is compared to monk I thought I would give it a go.

I have a monk in my guild at 3K IO, dude is still swapping out from monk for next season. Just because someone has the skill to do something with the right premade group doesn’t mean there are not any issues.

So you want to nerf Ret even tho it’s blatantly evident they won’t scale as fast as other specs?

Based on what? What though? Other Specs? “It’s easier to nerf the outlier!”

You mean it’s easier to ruin a spec than fix the others. Whether you believe it or not.

The top Demo in the world is like 3340 M+ rated, yet you wanna nerf it. Nerf it how, where, what talents, what %? How’s it going to play in S2? Are there known bugs? What are they? How are they impacting performance?

Hey let’s nerf Survival, it’s OP guys, their top player is 3357. It’s super OP apparently compared to ??? idk something. Whatever I’ve decided to perceive it’s OP compared to Demo cause stats don’t lie.

When you are talking about a class like retribution paladin you have to consider the damage profile and how the damage is done. You have to also consider that it is the easiest class in the game along with bm hunter. If you have a class like Ret paladin in S+ tier what’s the point of playing harder dps for lower results or playing super sweaty classes for similar results? Why bother playing enhance shaman when you do the same dps as a ret paladin who just equipped whatever and does a super chill rotation?

That’s literally chasing FotM.

He is swapping to DK.

Oh, Idk. The highest burst I’ve seen in the game right now was from an UH DK’s gargoyle.

He also mains tank. Got any more assumptions?

I could give you assumptions all day. BDK’s are practically invincible.

No doubt, but how about accepting that BRM is just subpar?

There’s actually an entire thread elsewhere here from the other day. Idk if it got buried or not.

However, giving more damage output because of difficulty is a fallacy. If they did that arcane mage would be top damage by a mile in all content for example. It wouldn’t be remotely close. Lots of players minds work differently so you need a small range of “difficulties” without tuning them all over the place.

If I’m designing a spec that range exists within the same spec with little to no change in damage output because to me the design and gameplay is far more important than rewarding output. The reward is the gameplay.

I personally think it’s silly players want to be rewarded for example by doing the same damage or more as someone playing a simpler spec at 90% of its capacity while they’re playing a “more difficult” spec at 70% capacity. You chose to play the more difficult spec, so you volunteer that damage loss just like they volunteer the damage gain.

Then there’s other considerations. If ret doesn’t do upper tier damage, you don’t bring it. Period. So it has to be above average by design or paladins as a class need blown up all over again.

I think they’d prefer to focus on making most other specs actually as fun/simple as ret. There are some, but there’s far too many stacking modifiers in this game right now for an average Joe to enjoy most specs.

I acknowledge that you have players that actually need that complexity to have fun, but they’re rarer than invincibles reins. The ones who actually enjoy complex rotations, not the ones who only want a competitive edge with them. So I’d first simplify everything, then design talent tree decisions that add complexity and no more than maybe a 1% damage increase. If that. The players who actually enjoy complexity would play those and 99% of everyone else wouldn’t.

1 Like

That feel when I see 442 as a sub rogue main xD

I enjoyed 9.0 tanking meta. The heck would I just wanna stand there when I can utilize my entire kit?

Lmao, you’re just bad. Tanking in general is god damn easy, at any rating.

However, I also have been playing WoW for a long time, so I can’t say my experience is close to anyone new. Not sure how it would be tanking this season or next for them.

This season, tanking is the easiest thing ever. Warriors are busted. Paladins carry entire keys as a tank as theyre basically heals and tank, DH’s do fine, and brew is slightly lacking outside of giant aoe fights.

Bear’s are just mushrooms.

Dude all I see you doing in this thread is complaining about complaining and not actually giving real feedback.

Warriors deserve the nerf, but it would have been better to move all tanks up to warrior’s position or close enough to it with buffs instead of nerfs.

Jesus christ thank god youre not a balance designer for blizz. That’s worse than what theyre doing now…

1 Like

Much of that has more to do with player skill this late in the season. Gear levels are much higher, everyone has tier, but not all keys are created equal.

A bunch of 400 ilvl potatoes can time a 20 SBG, may even +2 it with a bit of decent play.

That same group could eat dirt in every other key.

Meanwhile, a bunch of 395s who play right could time a 20 CoS

Doing 20 RLP? HoV? NO? Those keys grow more heavily on DPS landing key interrupts. A 415 group that can’t interrupt the right things may not time a 20 in the same week a 405 group who can, would.

Unfortunately, a full 415+ group doesn’t outgear 20s except on the pushiest of push weeks in the rotation.

But as far as viable goes, there really isn’t a class that can’t hang and hold impact on a 20 key, so long as you have lust.

There are exactly two times when your class choice actually matters in M+:

  1. You’re pushing top tier M+ content, which tends to start after your 20/21/22 keys this season.

  2. Your player skill level is so low that not utilizing your kit fully from class to class has a high impact. If you play well enough to utilize your full kit on a given class, you will almost never even notice the key level until you reach bucket #1.

Given how late in the season this is, and your reported experience, this sounds less like a “monk v paladin” gap, but a player/group skill gap.

Class gaps CAN make up for poor play IF the entire group is playing poorly. But this season, you only need a confident and geared tank, mid to decent healer, and one solid DPS to just rock keys for portals.

For reference, I puffed my 2500 back in February, rather casually. Pugging 20s and 21s now feel more like 13-15s back then. These late season potato wave portal pugs still feel like early season KSM level keys.

Why? Because I know my kit and dungeons well enough to autopilot and carry most groups. Relative to anyone remotely serious about M+, I’ve played but a drop in the hat. I purposefully came into this season blind to experience things from the perspective of a fresh player. A guildie liked to poke fun that I only did this due to being on a resto druid, so as a long time healer, I just slammed my terribly undergeared disc priest into the next 18, back before valor was uncapped, and still could play on par with or better than most PUGs.

I’m not sharing this as a brag, just to illustrate that when you can play a role or class to mastery, you can push up even on off meta classes or such. Anyone who plays disc, or better yet, anyone who heals on a variety of specs, would almost certainly understand that this means playing to nearly no errors and having foresight and recognition to play around pugs.

The gap between any random playing these two classes is going to feel huge.

The gap between a healer main who knows their kit isn’t going to notice after around 390-395; it’s all damage and mana from there.

That’s not to say that class disparities don’t exist and can’t help, just that if you find yourself leaning on this lane often, then you’re almost certainly a player who’s going to benefit far FAR more from just sticking to a class and really learning the first class in a role, inside and out. Until you can do that without thinking, then you’re playing at a level where you’re actively not playing to your potential as a player first

For 99% of content you’ll EVER do, gear is a crutch, classes are a crutch. If you’re not a top 1-3% player, you’ll see bigger performance gains by shaking this view and just beating yourself.

Don’t make excuses, if you genuinely care. That’s step 1 to M+

1 Like

We’re the runs on your monk with a guild group too or just the paladin?

415 is turbo overgearing 20s, my friend.