I actually also do not think that Thalyssra is the most powerful of mages.
If I remember correctly, in one of the more recent stories she was a part of some battle on Zandalar, where she opened many portals to get more troops through, this exhausted her. After a short rest, she opened some more portals to bring through some more.
We see mages opening portals casually here and there. of course, Thalyssra opens a number of them, but still. A big question is, where Thalyssra lies in terms of power equal to those Nightborne raid-bosses one fought in the Nighthold. If we are to talk feats.
I donât really care about like, specific character power levels for the sake of power. Thatâs weirdo reddit stuff.
I just think that maybe one shouldnât keep adding ancient magical societies who actually literally not-kidding drink and piss magic to oneâs fantasy world and then consistently have them be outclassed by other people because at that point what even is the point of them existing and showing up at all? Why write them? I also think developer statements are not a replacement for actual content and at a certain point you have to stop caring what the Wowhead interview says because it will never matter.
Sheâs older than humanity. And was enough of an upstart that Azshara kept her apprentices on hand, now monstrous sea beasts, seemingly just so she could get a rise out of her on the off chance their paths crossed again.
Kinda feels like if a nobel prize winning theoretical physicist was completely dunked on by an unusually clever fancy rat.
How is that even a situation? This thing has .002% of your natutral lifespan! Madness!
It matters when the only other option is contradictory⊠as I pointed out with Jaina pursuing the Horde sneak-crew, and Jaina wanting to flee a Sunreaver Mage and two dark rangers (Despite not being outnumbered at all). And it matters when the only other people she is compared to, are not given spotlights throughout the story, or their own cinematic moments to display their actual powers.
Then all we have left, is storyteller comments on the matter.
Human potential!
Anduin will also be a more powerful light-wielder than Velen.
Iâm just saying if one of these things just busts out and crushes it at Formula One, no one would hear the end of it. Ever. We could be gunning down Tyranids in the 41st millennia and someone would still say;
âRemember when a rat won the Monaco Grand Prix? That was wildâ
Meanwhile beings older than some stars whoâve crossed oceans of time and sometimes other, literal stars get dabbed on by adolescent humans and nobody rethinks their entire worldview.
I wouldnât worry about it. They kinda just want to vibe. Also contrary to popular belief actually pretty indifferent about cheese. They actually go berserk for berries in my experience.
So ya know. Just play some Lady Gaga and have some raspberries and theyâll be chill about it, I figure.
Yes, weâre told that in the past that the various elves are capable of impressive magical feats of strength but rarely is it evident in the present setting.
Instead, we have Thalyssraâs magical capacity capped at opening a portal once in a while, or projecting a barrier for a short period before she tires herself out. The writers would have you believe the arcanâdor restoring the Nightborneâs vitality never happened; frailty is now baked into Thalyssra and the Nightborneâs identity.
Whatâs worse, you would never know that the Blood Elves currently have a functioning font of arcane power with how much of a non-presence their named mages have.
Power level is never something worthy of consideration in this setting, beyond instances of âHuman Potentialâ. Traditionally tho, Horde Races and Individuals will always be outclassed by Alliance racial counterparts. Outside of Shamanâs, who Blizzard seems to have no idea what to do with on a lore level. Theyâve lost access to two of their 6 Subdomains (Spirit and Decay), and are vastly outclassed in near every one of the Four Elements by another class; but with far less requirements and restrictions for those. Hell, even Locks get better returns for their investment on making deals with denizens of other planes. Which is why its not shocking that Shamanâs seem to find no real place in a story with Elemental enemies as the foci.
Sigh ⊠combine that with Blizzâs relapse on Good Race/Evil Race tropes since Cata (despite still relying the same writing technique they used to humanize the Horde races in WC3, for VERY questionable results) ⊠the Horde generally is either a weak, motiveless villain; or an entirely optional sidekick who can only prove theyâre ânot evilâ by how convenient and submissive they are for members of the innately good other faction.
In terms of feats displayed in game, the story is an overall mess when determining characters more powerful.
Like when the Kirinâtor and the Blood Elves stood face to face at the Thunder Isle - Jaina could just as easily just wipe the floor with all of the Blood Elves then and there, no? I mean, she supposedly could⊠but did not. She tried to diplomatic? She really couldnât? Despite the only other mage that could supposedly stand against her was Aethas, but he could not⊠so she was afraid of Lorâthemar? A ranger? We would never know.
But it is true⊠we are told, but as you said, many of the Horde characters are never really given a proper âheroicâ spotlight moment, like Varian, Jaina, Tyrande, Malfurion. Thrall used the demon soul for awhile⊠awesome. He used an item.
It is quite bothersome, how little attention the Horde is given in this department. As someone who does like both factions, have for a very long time. It is⊠underwhelming for the story itself, and both Alliance and Horde players can feel it.
The Alliance is standing back after every faction-war arc playing out, the Alliance won, the Alliance is more powerful⊠why does the Alliance not just wipe out the Horde? They could.
The Horde is left behind, they are weak, subservient to the Alliance, waiting until the next villain-batting where they are suddenly just as powerful as the Alliance⊠despite the major power houses that the Alliance have, compared to what the Horde have⊠supposedly.
It just isnât good⊠and it is something that has bothered me for a long time.
My only guess would be, that the Horde DO have characters that could stand a reasonable chance against some of the Allianceâs most powerful characters⊠and some of those only being amongst the elves currently. Problem is - they are never really given a true spotlight, like many of the Alliance characters, to show off feats.
Blizzard IS terrible at storytelling.
They are also terrible at using the cast they have.
As a note, the Horde isnât suddenly as powerful as the Alliance. See, to villain bat the Horde theyâve thus far twice killed of a WC3 legacy leader, and shoehorned a despot into the drivers seat. They then proceed to shut anyone up who should have a problem with this, or that despotâs acts, until its convenient for the content that despot is creating for them to have an opinion. By that point it normally results in further Horde Character deaths, and the remainder are marred by inaction or complacency under the rule of that despot. Sylvie and Garrosh are the same in this regards. Protected by overwhelming plot-convenience.
However, Blizz also despises putting any work into the Horde in between those bouts of villain batting and plot devicing. This includes luxuries like âmeans, motives, and opportunityâ. So if motives is covered with the shoehorned despite, means and opportunity is taken care of through ONE awful shock factor act. For Cata, this was Thalâdarah Grove. For MoP, this was Theramore. For BfA, it was Teld. A major event to justify continuation of the conflict, but âgimmickedâ in such a way that the Horde will then proceed to lose every engagement from that point on. And this is because the Horde was barely settup to barely succeed in that one atrocity, to fulfill their plot device role. Not actually to be a threat in a prolonged conflict, no matter how much Blizz tries to hide it.
On paper the Alliance towers over the Horde in military, resources, and individual strength. But because theyâre âthe good guysâ who can ONLY ever be reactive entities, it has to be the Horde who always starts it.
If this was true, the Alliance would not be lacking the strength to take Orgrimmar when the Horde was splintered between Sylvanas and Saurfang.
Unless the Horde, despite their miniscule numbers comparatively to the Alliance, managed to just bite a huge chunk of the Alliance, and were better at doing it than the Alliance were to the Horde.
And it was outright stated that the Alliance could not take Orgrimmar alone, they did not have enough troops.
And this despite still having Jaina, Tyrande, and Malfurion.
But yeah, it is true that this could be called
The more I think back to BFA, the more I wish to just forget it as it had never happened like with the Shadowlands.
Blizzard should NEVER attempt another faction war story.
Sigh ⊠the traditional excuse Blizz normally operates off of is that the Allianceâs losses are just âmoreâ when it comes to these inter factional conflicts. Only enhanced by the Alliance being deeply restricted by some artificial purity test Blizz seems desperate to maintain. Its why both the Garrosh Conflict and the BfA conflict were proceeded by repeated acts of almost exclusively Alliance aggression; but all of it whitewashed so much the Horde canât even be allowed to react to it. And normally contingent on the Alliance falsely blaming the Horde for a tragedy that resulted in losses on both sides.
Truth is, Blizz seems VERY uncomfortable committing to showing the Alliance in an aggressive or antagonistic light since Cata. Despite drowning in reasons to take that role. While clearly being far too comfortable forcing the Horde to be the aggressors and antagonists, despite being allowed fewer and fewer narrative âluxuriesâ like: Means, Motives, or Opportunities since Cata. Its Good Race/Bad Race writing at its laziest. No matter how deeply questionable that is with how Blizz chose to break those very same tropes between WC3-WotLK. Methods they still use today outside the Meta Narrative btw.
He couldnât the first time.
The guy was also appointed by Rhonin, btw.
The second guy⊠I still find the idea that Aethas would heed the warnings of Garroshâ underlings laughable.
âWe will travel years across the ocean to destroy the Blood Elves while we are also at war with the Alliance if you tell Jaina anything about our plans.â
They are making light of some of the Allianceâs more antagonistic acts.
The purge of Dalaran included.
Did you know that the Silver Covenant also slaughtered entirely unaffiliated Blood Elves? For the mere reason that they just didnât stand WITH the Covenant? They were just staying out of the entire conflict⊠and was killed for it.
Most of the Sunreavers knew absolutely nothing of what went on. The two traitors acted on their own⊠it was never Sunreaver operations. That is quite antagonistic of Jaina and the Silver Covenant, but it is played down⊠very hard.
I also personally sympathise with Garroshâ and Sylvanasâ war up to a certain points. Garrosh HAD TO declare war in order to save the orcs, since he was given no other option by the Alliance.
Sylvanasâ made some decent points in the story âA Good Warâ.
The problem is that the wars continued after major atrocities - where, realistically, the other races would have started realising that their leader have already gone too far. It would not have been the first time for the Blood Elves, they should have been able to see it quickly.
Both are bull. The Alliance at both times when the war started didnât care about the Horde for the most part. The Alliance was generally busy dealing with their own problems. The Horde was the AGGRESSOR on both counts.
Oh I am quite aware there were those who went over board. Having said that it was mostly the high elves and suffice to say I think they were never particularly happy about their banishment from Silvermoon and possibly saw it as payback.
Either the Horde admits their fault in all of this and actually make amends or we will just end with a Fifth War sooner or later.
It was never intended to, beyond merely facilitating setting up future story/content. While to varying degrees this is true for the Alliance as well, Blizz isnât exactly subtle about how much the Horde has been rendered little more than a Plot-Device since Cata. Used by the story regardless of its own characterization needs, then discarded and forgotten when not being used. Honestly, Baine perfectly embodies that.
The Horde hasnât been written like a Faction in ages, with less and less work put into âjustifyâ or âexplainâ anything it has been tasked to do. Or even how it was supposed to do those tasks. Its just cuz. On the flip side of this, since Cata, Blizz has this tendency of burying the Alliance under so many justifications for their few grey acts theyâre allowed; that even their victims arenât allowed to react negatively to them.
Frankly, there is a reason that Taurajo is framed narratively far more as a âValid Military Targetâ; despite also being a tragedy. While Theramore is framed far more as a tragedy; while it was arguably a far more valid military target than Taraujo by the point of its bombing. And youâre right, Blizz has spent years walking back and whitewashing the Purge of Dalaran. Especially Vareesa and the Silver Covenantâs participation in it.
Because you are absolutely right, it was a tiny fringe group of Sunreavers that took it upon themselves to steal the bell. That the vast majority of the Sunreaver population in Dalaran didnât know about that event. And that Aethas did not find out about the theft until moments after it was too late to stop it; and then had a horrific choice forced upon him. Subject his people to the wrath of literal Orc Hitler, or Jaina. He chose Jaina, likely because he felt she was the lesser of two evils after it was HIS vote that broke the tie and committed Dalaran to aiding Theramore. But ⊠thanks to a very convenient bug the part of the Purge scenario where Aethas discovered the theft moments too late was not included in the game⊠Because why would we want nuance?
But Garrosh was forced to fight because the orcs was on the brink of famine when the shattering began as a result of the Night Elvesâ refusal to continue trade. Negotiations were attempted, and ended in the Twillightâs Hammer killing the negotiating druids while wearing Horde tabards, which shifted the blame on Garrosh.
Again going back to the problem: âMy people are starving⊠we can not get any food through trade either⊠better to go back to my original train of thought then, we take what we want.â which is what Garrosh does.
I do not blame Garrosh. I do blame him for going too far beyond that though.
Genn Greymane also helped prove Sylvanasâ point previously. He would stop at nothing to attack the Horde, despite orders from his king.
The only time peace could truly be achieved for the Horde, is if the peace came with the Horde on top. But Sylvanas too eventually went too far.
This is still the part I find laughable though. Even if that scene had been in the game, I do not see reason as to why Aethas should take it seriously. What could Garrosh realistically do? Sail for years to reach Quelâthalas and try and stomp the Blood Elves? If anything, Aethas should have straight up laughed in the orcâs face and just walk back and report to Jaina.
Garrosh had no power here⊠nothing he could do against the Blood Elves in Silvermoon.
The entire Purge of Dalaran is better left with Aethas genuinely not knowing what the hell happened.
There is no lore stating it was Rhonin who recommended him. It was Aethas who recommended him. Rhonin simple agreed to it.
Which can be blamed on Thrall. Had he actually investigated and promised to give any Horde member to Alliance justice(just like he did with Sira) then they could have probably found out it was a Twilight Hammer plot.
This logic will always fall apart. Garrosh could have spent his war resources trying to feed his people. Maybe instead of trying to deforest Ashenvale he could have have focused his explotation of nature on his allies lands. Pretty sure the blood elves have a lovely forest he could destroy.
Regardless of his reason, he and the Horde were no better then thieves.
And Genn prove his point that Sylvanas was plotting something horrible. Ultimately, Genn helped us stop or at least slow down Sylvanas plans of helping the Jailer. If you want to blame someone for that, blame the Horde.
