Entities within the Horde orchestrated Wrathgate. That is undeniable fact.
Hence the Horde is responsible.
They are responsible for Putris running his abhorrent experiments in Undercity until Wrathgate rather than stopping him.
The Horde is at fault fully and they faced the consequence of their inaction.
Put bluntly…
Now so have the night elves for making a pretty urine poor decision to punish the ORCS for something a demon of the Legion and one undead guy did.
The Horde could have stopped Putris at any time.
Why didn’t they? Why didn’t they stop the human experimentations?
Then there’s literally not a single thing wrong with the people who told you no defending resources that belong to them.
Some of that’s on Garrosh, himself. If his people really were starving to that extent, maybe they would be a better use of his resources than building an immense fleet to blockade the entirety of Kalimdor while they starved.
I acknowledged as much when I said “to give recent examples”. The main takeaway was that when the Night Elves told them no, the correct course of action would have been for the Orcs to seek out more amenable partners.
As an interesting side-note, with the cultural practices of SHAMANISM and DRUIDISM the races of Kalimdor should want for nothing in terms of food and resource production. They have the literal ability to cleans, move, and outright create natural resources (and shape landscapes to retain longevity in mineral resources). There is little reason beyond the Cultural Stigmas that come WITH those cultures that practice those forms of magic that should prevent all of Kalimdor becoming BOTH an immensely verdant landscape AND means of rapid growth and production.
And its not just the Kaldorei that are an issue here; there are culture roadblocks to that sort of Kalimdor shape in nearly every PC culture on that continent (and yes the Goblins are chief among them … they really need a chance in perspective now that MOST of the cartels are gone).
fair enough!
I’ve said variations of “i don’t condone, I just understand” multiple times.
above response.
And yet you never offered any reason WHY she would be able to do this, since in terms of the evacuation, all she really would’ve been is an extra body to be captured and/or burned. Tyrande made a calculated, and difficult, decision. It ended up being the right one, since the only differences would’ve meant her dead and/or captured, Malfurion dead, and nobody else rescued.
I take issue with Saurfang for the same reason I take issue with Baine. They’re both framed by many, even the writers to a degree, as Alliance stooges, when in fact they are completely pro-Horde, just their own idea of the Horde. They could not care less what happens to the Alliance so long as there are no consequences, but the moment they realize what they helped set in motion is about to roll over them too, they backtrack and want peace. This goes for many of the Horde leaders as well.
Saurfang led the Might of Kalimdor, alongside the night elves. He saw firsthand the destruction the Horde caused the kaldorei under Garrosh, and as a leader among the orcs also knows that their allowing the Horde to keep Azshara and Stonetalon basically solved his people’s lumber problem at a cost to themselves. These are a people he fought alongside several times, but he leads an assault on them because of Sylvanas saying ‘well, they might attack us later!’.
If everything had gone according to the plan in his head, the kaldorei would have been living under the boot of the Horde in their own home, at the mercy of those who are completely fine with tormenting them. The moment Saurfang left, who knows what would have happened to all those hostages. It’s been said that the Horde at large is in support of the Burning, which means that there is very little in terms of actual empathy for the kaldorei among them, especially not the military.
Don’t even get me started on Baine…
you say it as if he is some sort of savior
AFTER INVADING A COUNTRY AND KILLED DOZENS OF INNOCENTS GUARDS WITH ROGUES IN A WAR OF AGRESSION.
this his not his first genocide either.
He is not savior, he is an hypocrite and a coward.
he is as much responsible as sylvanas, and at least sylvanas doesn’t hide from it.
i mean, i understand if a character makes a mistake and regrets of doing it, but i think that i am going to need more good faith from saurfang to attone for what he has done.
More importantly, how many died because Sylvanas literally killed them?
he left his post because the battle was without honor and he realized it. who cares about those who died because he abandoned his post? they died fighting for a cause without honor. saurfang came to realize it after the burning, that the entire war lacked honor.
The Night elves refused to trade lumber with the Orcs after WC3 because the Warsong Clan invaded Ashenvale. At this point, the Night elves have no moral obligation to help the Orcs of Durotar just because they’re doing badly over there. The Orcs started the conflict, they deal with the consequences of aneliating a potential trading partner.
Except the initial harvesting of the Ashenvale trees occurred before the Orcs were even aware the Kaldorei were there; and things swung wildly out of control once Cenarius entered the fray. He sensed the Fel Taint in them and believed they were agents of the Legion setting up a foothold situation for another invasion; and went fully on purge mode (as did the NEs under his command). This ironically pushed the Warsong to such desperation they imbibed in Fel again.
There is something peculiar about looking at the WoT when you consider that the Kaldorei/Horde relations began with a preemptive attack meant to eradicate an opponent due to faulty reasoning and the belief that they were staving off a far worse FUTURE war. The Blood War begins with the Horde doing this against the Kaldorei; the Third War begins with the Kaldorei doing this against the Horde. Interesting that things came full circle like that… Rather contrived if you ask me.
I think the only thing that really connects what Resileaf was talking about to what Droité was talking about is Thrall’s inability to control the Warsong both during Warcraft III and after in WoW.
I should have been more specific. The Night elves refused to trade because the Warsong invaded again. Or didn’t leave. Rather than reign in the Warsong Clan, Thrall allowed them to do as they pleased in Ashenvale because he was afraid he’d lose the orcs’ support by appearing weak.
I don’t think the Night Elves did refuse to trade with the Horde after Wacraft III even while the Warsong were still attacking them. Supposedly the Night Elves were trading with the Horde until the Wrathgate.
It’s something that happened during the lifetime of Classic. Maybe during BC. But when WoW started, there was no trade.
The writers basically saw fan reactions to GoT and how emotionally people can respond to certain media and sloppily went “WE COULD DO THAT TOO” without including any of the nuances, politics, character depth, or ramifications that underpins George’s writing.
Shock value for the point of shock is cheap and unfulfilling, which is ironically a problem S8 of GoT falls into too lmao.
Except… the context is entirely different in each case. During the Third War, the Orcs (and Humans) invaded Night Elven lands, stole their resources, and desecrated their sacred forests. And that’s without Cenarius telling them about the fel taint.
Prior to the WoT, the most “aggressive” thing the Night Elven military did was escort Explorer’s League researchers through Silithus. Until the Horde leaked false intel that they were moving to secure Silithus (neutral territory, with a new powerful, and volatile, resource), as a feint.
The Horde attacked the Night Elves based on proximity and highly speculative prognostication. As opposed to the imminent threat of Orcs actively invading, and refusing to back down once the Night Elves made their presence and wishes known.
They did this without being aware the Kaldorei were even there, let alone knowing about the VAST cultural implications that came with cutting down what they would have perceived as merely an unexploited natural resource. Turns out there are consequences to hiding away from the world (the Sin’dorei and Shal’dorei both learned this in massively brutal ways).
If people show up to your shores and don’t know you’re there, they have no reason to not mess with your stuff. The Horde was not INVADING or ATTACKING squat from their perspective … because as far as they were aware there was no-one to INVADE or ATTACK. I wonder if the Orcs even had time to realize WHY the Kaldorei were attacking them before Cenarius got involved?
Also, Cenarius also did attack them with a highly speculative prognostication; and if nothing else (with the fact that a baker NE can be portrayed as so powerful they can fight off 8 Horde Soldiers) the Kaldorei have shown they are not just absurdly powerful, but also are not beyond making a preemptive attack to stave of what they believe is something worse (without explanation).
EDIT: And as a note, were are talking about a group of people who have living members who are Old Enough to remember the founding of their own Empire (that they had no issues with till Azshara went nuts) on the corpses of an untold number of trolls (and entire Troll civilizations). It is not as if the Kaldorei have not done this sort of thing themselves to other people.