Because:
1.) He commanded the force that took over nigt elf lands, and
2.) him being sad is supposed to wipe Teldrassil’s burning away.
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And in very short order, the Night Elves made the Orcs very aware they were there. From the moment the first Sentinel’s arrow was loosed, the only correct action for Grom to take was to say “Welp. Looks like someone lives here. Let’s go somewhere else”. Instead of digging in, and doing everything else horribly wrong.
No. He made an educated guess on what the Orcs were, based on the magic they’re infused with, not what they might do a hundred years down the road.
The Trolls attacked them first, when they first noticed the Night Elves expanding through central Kalimdor. Which, at the time, only Dark Trolls lived in (whom Malfurion later befriended, or at least coexisted with). Outside of beating the forces who were attacking the Night Elves, Azshara specifically let them keep the lands they already owned, so long as they stayed out of the Night Elves’ way.
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Looks at map of the Ancient Troll Empires … then looks at the map of the Ancient Kaldorei Empire. Looks at how the Zandalari, Gurubashi, Drakkari, and Amani were essentially pushed back all the way to their capital cities (and thats all they kept). Pretty sure looking at that map the ONLY people that were allowed to “Keep Their Territories” were the Pandarens. Or are you suggesting looking at that map that the Kaldorei WEREN’T an invading force?
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Did the Trolls get their empires with gift baskets and kisses?
Everybody fought and they lost. Its that simple.
Trolls only point towards land lost. Not great massacres that desolated a tribe.
While you’re looking at the maps, you can read the book (emphasis mine):
Azshara, however, was not interested in conquest. In her eyes, the trolls were a minor nuisance, their battle lust a symptom of primitive and unenlightened minds. Ultimately, the queen struck an accord with the Zandalari tribe, which held immense influence over all other trolls. In exchange for ending troll incursions into Night Elf territory, the Zandalari would be allowed -by Azshara’s grace- to keep the Zandalar Mountains south of the Well of Eternity.
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So essentially she just couldn’t be bothered to take their territories from them, because she no longer (if ever) perceived them as a tangible threat; and didn’t care about the territories the still held (though if down the road a resources she coveted happened to pop up in Zuldazar you know damned well she would have reneged or her “accord”. Or are you suggesting that Azshara did this for altruistic reasons? Really? Azshara of all people being even slightly altruistic?
How is this any different than say what … MCU Asgard did to the nine realms? Beat them till they can’t be a threat anymore, then “peace-talk” it up while they have no bargaining power (its by the grace of your mercy they are allowed to exist at all). Then just paint over all of that warmongering with racial and moral superiority (after all, Azshara was a pretty well known MASSIVE racist).
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Not even remotely. I know she wasn’t altruistic. If anything, she was dismissive and condescending. My point was, she didn’t take action until the Trolls began attacking the Night Elves.
Though, to slightly bring this new tangent back to the topic of the thread, she very well could have taken out the Trolls, but she didn’t. Just as Jaina could have taken out Orgrimmar, and didn’t. Sylvanas and the Horde had the oppurtunity to take out the Night Elves… and tried their level best, with gusto and enthusiasm.
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Sylvanas CERTAINLY was trying to wipe out the NE civilization and culture; but the War of Thornes as it was advertised to Saurfang was never about that. Hell, the plan she advertised to him REQUIRED that the Kaldorei remain in significant enough health as a culture to not only be valuable bargaining chips (those that were captured in the capital), but also place pressure on Anduin’s inexperienced leadership and fracture the Alliance.
Aggressive? Sure. Jumping the gun? Absolutely. But there was never the intent from Saurfang to end them as a people or nation (which is why he repeatedly treated Tyrande and Malf as obstacles best avoided if/when possible, because THEY would be needed to represent their still very existing people in SW). Sylvanas in contrast … oh no she was all about wiping the Kaldorei of the face of Azeroth (for still frustratingly opaque reasons). God I love being forced to fight in a war I’m constantly told I should feel bad about, and could never win (without the Alliance being ideologically and literally handicapped) … without knowing WHY. Its all about that TWIST I guess…
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He wanted to enslave them for god’s sake.
This is why it blows my mind whenever honor horde fans try to defend Saurfang.
At least the Sylvanas fans are honest.
Where does it say this? In fact, even Tyrande believed that if Teldrassil needed to be taken it might be in better hands under the leadership of Saurfang (someone who showed mercy, and was shown mercy). A forced occupation is not slavery … and never was it implied that he intended anything more than a forced occupation. They would be prisoners of war … nothing else (and would be treated according to their behavior and the leader in charge of watching them).
I understand that you have a tendency of seeing things exclusively through a deep blue bias lens; but temper your expectations a bit. Saurfang’s internal monologue and thoughts on the conflict (while contrived and convenient for Sylvie’s plans) are on full display in “A Good War”. He never had any intention of ENSLAVING the Kaldorei. What Sylvanas wanted to do with them on the other hand … there is a significantly darker edge to her internal monologues in that story.
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I believe this is what Phae means. They were to be captives, not slaves (per se, I imagine the Night Elves would have been subjected to unwilling menial labor as part of their occupation). Both still reprehensible.
Saurfang would be keeping an entire nation in an open air prison with no free will of their own to trade, move around or self-determination.
Besides Saurfang is no humanitarian. He just wants a good fight, wellfare of a conquered people are not his concern.
However, they are treated it would just be the natural consequence of losing and being the conquered.
After Teldrassil the Horde became even more brazen and violent. You would think it would have the opposite reaction from the Horde.
No sir Sylvanas at least put them out of their misery. What Saurfang wanted was perpetual suffering.
But no I don’t think NEs would be shipped off to the cotton farms of the Horde across Kalimdor. I don’t think Blizzard is that brave.
Meh … how you perceive the events I think depends on how your relate to/or perceive the various actors. I don’t like this story; I don’t like this War of Thornes; I especially don’t like the Burning; and I believe the Kaldorei AND their players deserve some level of justice and recompense. i also do believe Saurfang must face punishment for The War of Thornes (which he was an architect of); however not for the Burning of Teldrassil (which he was not, and tried to stop).
On the other hand … I don’t perceive the Kaldorei as a perfect people either; and I also DO think that the races of Kalimdor WOULD have (likely far sooner than even Saurfang thought) come to increasing tensions and blows with one another. Even if the Horde DID NOT intend to EVER attack the Kaldorei, in a period of peace their growing population would inevitably become a threat to the Kaldorei way of life. So … unless the Kaldorei shirked their isolationist tendencies to the absolute max and guided the fledgling Horde civilization (much like the Wild Gods did for them) … conflict WAS inevitable (the two civilizations were just too culturally incompatible).
EDIT: It is in this same vein that the Alliance and Forsaken conflict on EK was very likely equally inevitable (as long as Sylvie continues to prioritize control; or perhaps is even a part of their development at all). Sylvie’s Forsaken are too culturally incompatible with the Alliance of EK for conflict to not occur.
He should be executed in my opinion.
He wants to die so bad? Let him but with no axe in his hand.
Maybe Tyrande could throw his stupid head into a moonwell for more powerups.
The Kaldorei lived in ashenvale and northern Kalimdor without bothering anyone for thousands of years.
If the Horde does not bother them then they will not bother them. Aggression will always be Horde only export.
Let the Horde deforest Suramar or Quelthelas. Lets see how they like it.
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Given WoW’s history, I find this an unrealistic expectation. I do not hold very much stock in the attack on the Humans and Orcs in Warcraft III as relevant to the mentality of the Night Elves in current events, not any more than Turalyon’s depiction in Tides of Darkness as seeing anyone not from Azeroth not being able to be united with the Light relevant to Turalyon’s mentality in current events now.
Additionally, as much as you and a few other posters bring it up, the Horde, Orcs, and even Humans have never brought up that the Night Elves attacked them ever since then. It was not even in Sylvanas’ list of grievances that she drummed out to try to convince Saurfang of her plans. It does not see to be a historical point that anyone in the setting bases any of their perceptions on.
The Night Elves befriended, aided, and invited both the Draenei and the Gilneans into the Alliance. The Cenarion Circle took in the Tauren, Worgen, and even the Darkspear Trolls. Many Gnomes, Dwarves, Draenei, and Humans are living in Night Elf towns all across Kalimdor. Night Elf forces banded together with Sunwalker Tauren to defend Stoneplow and were welcomed into the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. And thanks to the Night Elves Genn Greymane went from the man who left the Alliance and built a wall to keep everyone else away to a man who preaches unity because of how much the Night Elves did for him and his people. Night Elves practically have no isolationist tendencies to speak of any more.
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Well you do have a point … which is why I think the excuse used to get Saurfang involved in this conflict would work on him … but is nevertheless no less absurd. We cannot know how history will unfold, only that it will (and the Bronze aren’t forthcoming with the future, they only ask to aid in the maintenance of the past).
But … that’s all in the past I suppose. The question remains, how will this demented little story end? For the Horde, for the Alliance, for the Forsaken, for the Kaldorei? I honestly have no real idea … outside of Sylvie likely completing whatever the hell she’s doing that had Blizz bending the Horde Identity like crazy to allow.
Find a giant rug to sweep the burned tree under it.
Blame sylvanas.
Vindicate the Horde like they were the victims in all this.
Make the Alliance apologize for their reprisal, they should have been more understanding.
Have the Horde say it’s ok.
The end.
Get ready for the next expansion.
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Hmm … I’m not quite as pessimistic as you.
- I do think it is possible that Blizz will attempt to foist the lions share of the blame for at LEAST Teldrassil onto her shoulders.
- I think the most likely method of doing so IS her betraying the Horde in some catastrophic Teldrassil style way; to make the Horde ALSO her victim.
- I believe that the Forsaken (and perhaps even Nathanos) will ALSO be the victims of such an act (if not hurt more than the rest of the Horde by her). Also, as a means to distance the two.
- I genuinely expect Sylvanas’ plans to come to fruition.
Beyond that … no idea? Maybe the Black Empire will come back in full and just blow the hell out of the world (making territory rather worthless tbh).
Would that be his second or third genocide? The Draenei on Outlands would be the first. Maybe Stormwind in WC1 for the second? So Teldrassil would be the third?
I feel the major problem with him at this point is he should have known better by this point. He has been down this road before. And this is after the grand speech to Garrosh in Northrend.
It’s his third. I almost want to say Blizzard realized that, or at least saw it being pointed out, and that’s why they changed tack to Baine suddenly being the moral backbone of the Horde, and stopped pushing Saurfang so hard (outside of cinematics, which take considerable time to make). But I also think that might be giving them too much credit.