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there’s a big difference than wanting and needing.

Donald trump wants greenland for vanity.

The orcs needed the resources Ashenvale could provide… lumber, food, water, because Durotar is barren. As I said, if a people are desperate, you can help them, and you refuse to because “this is my land,” you’re not exactly complicit in what they do, but if you don’t understand what a desperate person will do to not die, you’re a bit naive.

Grom’s biggest character arc was that he was kind of a jerk, and then died trying to make it up to people. did… you miss that?

Do you want to play the hypocrite game? Because our alliance can play the hypocrite game. Wouldnt open that can of worms if i were you.

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Its similar to the people who spell Democrats/Republicans as Democ-RATS! or Repuli-CONS!

You know… They think its clever.

The orcs could have gone to Ferelas, Lordearon or Quelthelas for the lumber they so desperately needed.
That was the whole point of the Horde right? Help each other to survive.
Why don’t they go to Mulgor and farm there? By all accounts its a massive grassy plain perfect for farming.

To Orcs. Not people. What did he make up for Cenarius or Night Elves?

By all means. Open the can of worms.

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Hmm … as strange as it is, I have very mixed feelings about the WoT. On the one hand … why start it now? On the other hand, if Blizzard cared AT ALL about things like resource distribution, population growth, and the growing needs of growing peoples … conflict was bound to happen between the races of Kalimdor eventually. However, Blizzard doesn’t seem to think on these things.

The Kaldorei civilization and the civilization the Horde are growing into were just not compatible. NONE of the Kalimdor Horde races have particularly long lifespans, and EVERY Horde race has gone through a near extinction level event (and near constant conflict) over the last 35 years. On top of this, the Horde is inhabiting some of THE HARSHEST territories on Azeroth right now (it cannot possibly support the type of growth the Horde races would likely see in a prolonged peace).

Quite bluntly, tensions would continue to escalate between the Horde and Kaldorei … and if the Horde were to continue developing as explosively as they have the last 10 or so years … they would increasingly become a risk to the Kaldorei way of life (and thus … war was VERY likely eventually).

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Right… which… the night elves could either react the way they reacted, by not even offering to help and killing the orcs on sight…

Or they could have appealed to a very peace-seeking war chief at the time, and taught the orcs to use the resources they offered, but to respect the land.

So yeah. I don’t support the aggression of Garrosh, but i don’t really support the cop-calling neighbor-ly behavior of the night elves either.

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Victim blaming.
Of course.

Poor blameless orcs. Shame on everyone else for not cuddling them like some charity case.

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They traded up until the wrathgate and even then it took garrosh and the TH to shoot faction relations to hell.

Sylvanas could have used the fact that there is a giant sword stuck on the planet to open relations and trade while everyone was working on that, she just chose to kill them all for the sake of some nebolous plan.

Hell, if you want to go back even further if Thrall wasnt a total coward and had brought the hammer down on the warsongs cairne could have been able to hook the orcs up with night elf allies in two years tops, never forcing them into the Alliance to begin with.

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I’m not suggesting hugs. I’m not blaming the victims. I hated what happened to teldrassil, and i already told you that i don’t support what garrosh did. But i’m also saying that, surprise surprise, when you treat someone like a rabid dog, you can’t make the shocked pikachu face, as someone above said, when they bite you.

You and I largely agree on this then. I’ve said multiple times that I don’t support the horde being aggressive with the night elves. I’m just a student of history, and understand how nations react when they’re desperate, and a nearby neighbor has the means to help… and doesn’t.

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I don’t think you understand. I understand that Blizzard doesn’t seem to put a whole lot of thought into population growth and resource distribution, but IF in a hypothetical world we had the Kalimdor Horde peoples in a lasting peace … their need for resources would begin to far outstrip the willingness of the Kaldorie to GIVE resources (probably far quicker than the Kaldorei could imagine with their absurd lifespans). In such a situation, tensions would start to rise on both sides.

We are talking about FOUR distinct races who have FAR shorter lifespans than the Kaldorei and have gone through near extinction level events within the last 35 years. They ARE going to see massive growth and population spikes in a period of lasting peace … and WITH those population spikes the need for natural resources will increase in tandem. I am not taking a moral stance on this … but I am stating that it is a likely outcome unless the Kaldorei starting taking a REAL proactive approach to shaping the Horde civilization REAL quick (just like the Wild Gods did for them).

Tyrande was acting on the same assumption. I can copy paste that here if you want as well, but I don’t think you actually feel like discussing the actual story instead of your hypothetical alternative.

I’m not here to disprove your theory. I’m saying your hypothetical What If situation where Tyrande thought that the Horde would have burned Teldrassil has no baring on Tyrande. No more baring than one’s hypothetical in which Saurfang would have realized that Sylvanas was going to burn the tree all along. I’m not disproving your theory. I’m saying your theory is pointless and irreverent to any discussion of the story as it actually is.

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I dunno about that. The kaldorei can take a sappling and make it grow pretty quickly. Hell, they grew a new world tree as big as the old one in a matter of years. We have instances of the kaldorei druids planting trees and having them grow to adulthood in a matter of seconds. I’m pretty sure they could have handled helping the orcs out with resources.

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But WOULD the Kaldorei do that?

I am not suggesting them physically being incapable of doing so; I am talking about them ideologically being WILLING to do so. Their trees are sacred to the Kaldorei, they harvest only what they need … and for thousands of years they shaped THEIR needs as a culture to fit what the Forest can provide. Would the shift their cultural perspective to adjust for the Horde’s explosive rise in need; and begin planting ANYTHING with the SOLE purpose of harvesting it for use or trade?

On top of this the Kaldorei culturally don’t have much need for MINERAL resources, so the Horde (who ONLY have access to large mineral resources) would be on a HUGE back foot when it comes to trade negotiations.

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Prior to the war, the Horde controlled most of the forested regions of northern Lordaeron (Lordaeron the continent, including Quel’thalas). Perhaps Orcs should try trading with their allies, instead of stealing from their neighbors.

Ontop of which, the Orcish race began as cave-dwellers in Gorgrond. Gorgrond is rocky desert. Durotar is the closest thing on Azeroth to the native habitat of the Orcs. They shouldn’t be struggling to survive in it.

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Naralex was literally trying to.

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See THAT is an interesting point … and was VERY forward thinking to alleviate what would eventually be a point of contention between the two different civilizations. Shame nothing amounted to that, and there was little movement from the Kaldorei since then to pick up the attempt after that failure.

I mean heck, by all indications the best option would have been to start inducting the Horde races (more of them) into Druidic practices so they can just do the deed themselves. If they don’t need the Kaldorei to grow lumber or nurture desolate landscapes into something that could support widescale agriculture (which certainly WOULD chill out the Horde races … agriculture) … then the chances of conflict arising between the Horde and Kaldorei would diminish considerably.

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…Now that I think about it, why didn’t the tauren druids help them with that? Eh… plot holes.

No, they wouldn’t have. And that’s my problem with the Night Elves. Treat people like animals, don’t be surprised when they act like them.

Or, you know… make other allies. We’re so conditioned by this red vs blue nonsense that none of us seem to realize that just because someone isn’t currently an ally, it doesn’t mean we can’t make NEW allies.

I’m staying out of the discussion with Pheandra since Zaltaan is covering it better than anything I could really add, but I did want to say that I agree with Zaltaan, and shared the opinion as well:

However

In larger context I also agree with this point, though:

It’s certainly plausible. There’s no shortage of lumber in Highmountain or Suramar, to give recent examples.

Point being, there were a myriad of other options than invading the lands and stealing the resources of the one people who told them “no”.

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The Horde came in like a rabid dog. The first time they met.
There was also trading until the Horde orchestrated wrathgate. Regardless of who actually did it. The Horde was still at fault.
Then they gave away Azshara and still the Horde attacked them. Again.

Clearly the problem is Nightelves mean words.

Btw where is the can of worms you promised?

With his logic Trump should have already started his nuclear strikes upon Denmark.

They did. Three of the Disciples of Naralex are Tauren:

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Okay, after this misrepresentation of what happened, I may be done with you. You could have said “Sylvanas orchestrated the wrathgate,” and I wouldn’t be done with you. I’d have accepted it, even though that is still technically false too since it was putress. It does matter who did it. It matters a lot.

Yeah, but there’s a limit to what shipping can do. If you have a source that’s readily available nearby, you’re already a warlike race, and your people are literally starving, you’re not going to want to wait for those resources.

Also, Suramar wasn’t in the fold when the conflict over ashenvale began.

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