A recent topic

Lore Story Forum
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So one of our more active posters got the forum riled up by implying that it was actually Tyrande, and not sylvanas that is at fault for the burning of teldrassil. But that got me thinking…

Now i myself am, what I think anyway, a very worldly tauren. I have human, dwarven, draenei, and even one night elf friend from the legion war. I don’t hate the alliance. on the contrary, i find it ridiculous that we can’t get along with the Alliance (despite the Taurajo incident). I even refused to take part in the quest to take the night elven capital. I thought it was unnecessary since we now, essentially, had the resources of two lands in the broken isles to bolster what we don’t get out of durotar.

But i do take issue with one complaint the alliance has against us.

Saurfang.

So some of you hold a grudge against him for being complicit in the burning of the world tree. And I could understand your initial anger. But if you re-read the histories of what happened (elegy and a good war), you know that Varok did not realize that the tree would be burnt. He thought he was going to occupy the city. Based on what you, the alliance, knew of him before this event, would you believe that he intended on slaughtering civilians?

I’m all for peace. I’ve participated in as little of this war as I could get away with, and still achieve my max potential (hit max level). But Saurfang should not be the target of your ire. You all know what it’s doing to him.

That’s all. And don’t worry about me. I just went and found my fire resistance cloak. I’m ready for your responses!

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No, I said she was partially to blame for how many people died. I never said she burned it or that it was her fault it was burned.

It is my opinion that more could have been saved if she had left Malfurian and gone to Darnassus.

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hey! Focus! not the topic at hand! shoo! back to your topic! :rofl:

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Alright. My problem with Saurfang is that he abandoned his post in the middle of a battle.

Soldiers depend on those who lead them to survive. How many died because he left the battle?

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Oh for hordies it’s fair to dislike him. I just don’t get the alliance hate, thats all.

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He was perfectly happy knowing Astranaar was complety wiped out by the Horde.
Not only he was happy, he was impressed at how effieciently they killed them all and took the town before he could arrive.

And enslave its populace indefinitely. Oh boy I sure love the honourable Saurfang.

The man has more blood on his hands than any of the Horde leaders including Sylvanas.
He is a naive and savage orc who’s sole drive is the primitive Orcish concept of honourable combat. The only thing he seems to take issue with is not being cheapshot.

I put him up there with Sylvanas, Arthas, Blackhand and the rest of the villains.
His only saving grace is that he is a simpleton.

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That doesn’t negate his complicity. He orchestrated the War of Thorns. Without WoT, Sylvanas would have never got within a hundred miles of Teldrassil. It was even his idea to intimidate both the external Alliance and the civilians of Darnassus by lining the coast of Darkshore with catapults aimed at Teldrassil.

He handed Sylvanas a gun, loaded it, disarmed the safety… then tried to pull a shocked Pikachu meme when she actually fired it.

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I think that’s a bit much. The orcs and the night elves have been fighting over ashenvale for as long as the humans and orcs had been fighting over the eastern kingdoms. He does not have more blood on his hands than sylvanas, and it’s disingenuous of you to suggest that. And whats more is that you know that.

I know you have a hategasm for the orcs, and i can sort of understand that. But the dude is trying to help end the war.

To be fair, he thought sylvanas was a good strategist, and wouldn’t throw away the advantage he’d just won her. Eff him for thinking logically, I guess, right?

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That wasn’t his logical thinking. His logical thoughts were during the ever so brief moments of lucidity when he considered the notion that Sylvanas was playing him like a full orchestra.

Thoughts he subsequently pushed aside for duty, or honor, or some such notion that got him inadvertantly complicit in genocide.

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Tyrande stopped by Darnassus before going to look for Malfurion. From Elegy:

    Tyrande emerged into turmoil.

    Night elves were pressed in tight lines, waiting to escape the city through the portals—the only means available. The magi operating them looked exhausted, their arms trembling as they kept the gateways open. Priestesses, every bit as weary, tried to shepherd the throngs through in an orderly manner. Several kaldorei crowded the moonwell, praying to Elune for safety.

    Children, sensitive to the anxiety of their elders, were weeping, and their parents clutched them close.

    A cheer went up as all recognized their high priestess.

    “Lady Tyrande!” a night elf woman cried, trying to push through the crowd.

    “High Priestess!” someone else shouted.

    “What is happening?”

    The voice was human, and the speaker stepped beside her after shouldering her way through the crowd. Tyrande looked down at Mia Greymane. The queen’s expression was stoic, but her eyes were wide, and she trembled ever so slightly. The high priestess bent to listen to her words. “We hear that the Horde has destroyed the wisps, that the Sentinels are all dead, and that the Horde approaches with arcane fire to burn the World Tree.”

    “None of those are true,” Tyrande said. “But . . . the Horde is coming.” She paused, wishing she need not utter the awful words. “And they will take Darnassus.”

    Mia took a sharp breath, then squared her shoulders and nodded. “Are you here to help with the evacuations?”

    “I cannot,” and Tyrande’s voice broke as her eyes swept the scene. “Malfurion goes to fight Sylvanas. I must aid him. If he wins that battle, the Horde will suffer a severe blow to their morale. They could even become disorganized for a time, which could allow more of our citizens to escape.” She paused. “You should return to your own husband, Queen Mia. He is so worried.”

    Mia shook her head. “Not yet. I’m just a few steps from a portal,” she said. “It’ll do Genn good to practice patience for a little longer. Go. I’ll continue working with the priestesses to keep the lines moving and everyone calm.”

    Then Queen Mia hopped onto the wall of the moonwell.

    “Citizens of Darnassus! Honor your high priestess! She goes to join Malfurion Stormrage in battle!”

    The throngs fell silent, and a pathway was cleared.

    Moved, Tyrande lifted her arms and asked Elune’s blessing upon them. Her people needed hope and courage and strength if they were to take up the burden that would soon be placed upon them. “Oh, my people . . . we are not alone,” she cried.

    “Malfurion and I will do all we can so that as many of you as possible will be safe. For those who must remain, do not fear! If Teldrassil does fall to the Horde, the Alliance will come hard on their heels. We have friends. And we have our will. We are kaldorei!”

    They cheered her as she passed. She knew her words were not enough. But it was all she could do—for now.

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Are you kidding me? The guy was part of the first Horde. He has more atrocities under his belt than even Sylvanas. At least she ordered it happened. Saurfang did it personally.

Because orcs are evil invaders who try to conquer or assimilate everything they encounter. Just because the orcs have been attacking and trying to conquer all of Ashenvale since WoW launched doesn’t make it alright.
It just highlights orcish aggression and amoral behaviour.

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No, my point of contention is that when Malfurian was injured, she chose to save him instead of going back to Darnassus. I honestly do not blame her for it, I probably would have done the same thing if it was my wife.

But, I think if she had gone back to Darnassus instead of grabbing Malfurian and gone back to Stormwind, she could have helped save more.

We have no way of knowing or proving if that was true, which is why I say it is only my opinion.

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Yeah … its sort of interesting. The lesson Saurfang effectively learned at the end of “A Good War” was that he NEVER really understood Sylvie’s motivations for this war (and that he had made a TERRIBLE mistake pushing aside his concerns over her strange behavior, because he ASSUMED she truly had the Horde’s best interest in mind). It was clunky, but I TOTALLY buy the reason he tried to find a means to hide from his mistakes (through death; through the Alliance; through the Stockades) was that he could no longer trust his own judgement enough to do it himself.

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I respect that. I haven’t logged into any of my Horde alts since before the War of the Thorns event became available.

I agree with your general point. And I disagree with other Night Elf fans that blame Saurfang for the burning of Teldrassil. However, I do fault Saurfang for the War of the Thorns still, and do feel that he has to atone for the march through Ashenvale and Darkshore. The problem I have with Saurfang is the following:

Tyrande says in the Alliance Darkshore Warfront introduction questing “Teldrassil burned because I chose to spare Saurfang’s life.” The Night Elves still don’t know that Saurfang was not party to the burning of Teldrassil. Because Saurfang has never spoken up about it again, has never even told anyone that it wasn’t part of his plan, never said a single word of remorse to any of the victims. That is a story problem for Saurfang and the Night Elves, and one that carries over onto the Horde as a whole.

The Horde hasn’t shown remorse for Teldrassil. Instead Blizzard has the Horde defile the dead at Darkshore and blight the land that the Horde wrongfully tried to steal and keep. Blizzard doubled down on the Horde’s sins with a warfront framed by the charred husk of Teldrassil as a skybox. Orcs, Trolls, and Blood Elves along with the Forsaken and Goblins all continue to support the Horde forces at Darkshore while basking under a monument to Horde’s depravity there at. The Horde is even presented in the Alliance introduction to the Darkshore Warfront, using prisoners at Darkshore as target practice.

But so far Saurfang has only focused on the Horde. When Saurfang needs to show the Night Elves that he acknowledges the War of the Thorns was wrong and that he needs to atone for his part of it. Saving Baine and ousting Sylvanas is good for the Horde, and good for the Alliance as well. But it’s not enough to change the way Night Elves feel about Saurfang when the perception is that he’s only doing any of that because of the Horde and not because he would strive to make any amends with the Night Elves.

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I mean i dunno man. You seem to have a pretty aggressive hate phallus for the orcs, and refuse to see their side.

Everything in ashenvale really only escalated when Garrosh took over. Sure warsong gulch was a thing, but that never seemed like more than a skirmish until recently. The orcs could have been quite peaceful under Thrall, if he hadn’t… given up. I still don’t fully understand why he left the horde… but whatever. I know the reasons he gave, but i don’t get them. Thats my only personal beef with thrall. Eh… i digress.

They needed resources. The night elves had more than enough wood, but refused to share. There’s another parallel between germany and the horde. Germany was blamed after world war I, which was stupid since it wasn’t them that started it… they only defended their allies. The punishments they received after the first world war made them resource starved and desperate… desperate enough to believe the charismatic nationalist that told them they deserved better than what the allied nations gave them. Same with the horde and Garrosh in this instance. So the orcs… did what they do best. They tried to take it. Only varian wrynn stopped them from taking the whole damned forest. Not saying it was right, obviously i’m not a notzi supporter. But when you make people desperate when you have the power not to, you reap what you sow. a people that wanted peace could have found a way to make it work.

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Do you intentionally misspell his name? Or is this like the people who legitimately have a hard time spelling Sylvanas?

Saurfang disagrees with your opinion:

    The lethal points of Elune’s light responded to her rage, becoming terribly, deathly still. Their sharp tips pointed at his throat. She longed to release them.

    But she did not. Tyrande had seen little enough honor from the Horde, and she believed Saurfang was ashamed. How long had he stood there, not striking the death blow—he, the high overlord, a warrior who had shed blood a thousand times over?

    The Horde would take Darnassus. When they did, a general who believed in honor, and who had received mercy, might in turn show mercy to the kaldorei prisoners.

    And there had been so much death. Her heart was sick with it; she had no wish to add to it out of her own vengeance.

    “The Horde may win this battle, Saurfang, but we will reclaim our home.”

    “Perhaps.”

    Was he trying to goad her into losing her temper? She would not give him the satisfaction.

    “You spared Malfurion, so I will give you a choice. You can die trying to stop me from taking him away, or you can stay there, lying in the dirt, and live.”

    But the orc was not done. He replied, “You have the same choice. You can take him back to Darnassus, and both of you will fall when we conquer it, or you can take him far away from here, and you will both live.”

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I think the game in general needs to acknowledge Teldrassil lol.

Jeezus these writers … cremating thousands alive in a giant tree for shock value; then wanting nothing to do with it afterwards (because they could not be bothered to try to figure out WHY either the Tauren or Blood Elves would stand by Sylvie’s side after it). Its why they swept it under a rug outside of the occasional mentions on the Horde side (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil).

It was a plot-device, used to incite this war, which in of itself is just an excuse to progress Sylvie’s personal narrative and setup a future expansion. I am absolutely convinced these people started at the END of this story, and worked their way back in the most haphazard way possible to find a route to get to that ending (so many writing issues would make sense if that were the case).

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Because they are the most hypocrite race.
They keep doing evil things but then in the next moment they say something to the effect of:
“Buuuuut it ain’t my fault! Blame them! Not meeeeee!”
“Me not that kind of Orc!”

Until the next event where I see them doing the same thing. They history is full of this sort of garbage and its always someone else’s fault.

Grom Hellscream and Warsong Outriders were there before Garrosh.
Killing and destroying the lands of beings that don’t seek conflict seems to be a cultural trait of the Orcs.

Just because you want something doesn’t make it alright to take it.
Trump wants to buy Greenland and Denmark refuses to sell it.
Does that mean America has the moral right to launch a full scale invasion of Denmark and kill them all?

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No, i just forget it’s an o instead of an a, an honest mistake. But really, however I spell it is irrelevant, there are other, better things to harp on. I ignore it when people misspell her name, it’s a non issue.

Saurfang was operating under the assumption that they would take Darnassus, not burn it. Sure, in that scenario, they probably would have been killed trying to protect the civilians.

But that isn’t what happened, so Saurfang’s prediction was wrong from the get go.

It still doesn’t disprove my theory, just like I cannot 100% prove it.

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Saurfang now has 3 genocides under his belt. The first two can be swept under the rug because burning legion shananigans- but you’d at least expect Saurfang to know better than to start a new goblal conflict while the planet as a giant sword stuck in it

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