The problem is pugging.
IO score started as a player made concept that Blizzard adopted to vouch for a player’s ability. It has never been a perfect measure of ability but it does somewhat serve it’s purpose. The more Blizzard facilitates getting score by being carried rather than skill the less the community will trust IO and the more they will fall back on meta picks, past achievements, or external data like RIO. Even if someone posting a key they took ten attempts to get does get people to join, those players will find that the key holder is contributing far less than average and is making the key harder for everyone else. Then those players will be more scrutinizing of the next key they join.
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Mate you should read your class guide because you aren’t good yet have a lot of opinions on high keys.
Might?
It also make M+ unlosable content which this game has enough of. If there is no failure of defeat then what is the point? These are the people that use cheat codes in single player games. I don’t get it.
That’s just not true at all.
There’s only so much time in the day and just because you can get several more attempts at the same difficulty in doesn’t mean you’ll ever beat it.
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I certainly don’t make this game the focal point of my life and self worth the way that you do.
I said nothing about them. 
How so? The failure point is the key deranking, if that goes away like the suggests, then what is the point? Sounds like a sterile game mode.
100% agree. It was the finality of the initial statement - which I can empathize with - that made it paradoxical to me.
I think that depleting keys hasn’t hurt your progress to push into the upper echelon, though if there was no-depletion across the board I’m not sure how that would suddenly make some classes/specs desirably to bring or invite over others.
Maybe it could also perpetuate some negative consequences: if the keyholder felt the key wasn’t going to time AND they had no threat of it depleting, what’s from stopping them from simply hearthing out and dropping party? They could do this a couple times to the PUGs until they found one they felt couldn’t complete it. Definitely toxic gamesmanship.
I’m not playing in the same league as you so take my ponderances with the appropriate grains of salt.
Because I don’t think you understand the disparity of what you are saying. Bricking a 17 or 18 key isn’t like dying in super mario bros. A check point in mario is like 5 minutes of wasted time when you die.
A keystone could be several hours (1-6+ hours) of boosting your key back up. It is like in regular wow how you just resurrect when you die but in hardcore wow you just start over. These are very different punishments for failing. Hope that helps you understand.
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If people wanna run a chill group, why is the possibility of losing a level a problem? They’re there for a good time and if they lose, they’ll end up with a key they’re more likely to time.
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everytime I’ve seen someone say keys shouldn’t derank has boiled down to “It feels bad”.
The risk is not timing for better keys, which would give better loot, which is enough of an incentive to want to time it.
If you don’t like that concept then idk, don’t play soccer if you don’t like soccer.
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I think you’re close but not quite there to getting my point.
Correct. Timescales are different, and in the larger picture of M+, the degraded key isn’t punishing you for a death, it’s punishing you for the death of the key. This is important for the two rewards in the gameplay loop; vault loot and rating.
This is quite hyperbolic, but I’ll let it pass without incident since better examples aren’t readily available.
M+'s gameplay loop does not begin at putting the key in and end at timing or failing to time the key.
And for the record before Myz shows up and tries to be pedantic; yes, I know S4 has made larger gaps in key level disparity. I know that has an impact here. It doesn’t change my opinion on the matter.
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Because they may want to try again for a specific gear level reward and don’t have the time to keep re-leveling keys to try again?
The chill part means they don’t cry if they fail, not that they don’t want to succeed ever.
That high keys are seldom done in pug and seldom done by forum dwellers, yours truly included. Sure, if you want your 11+ keys not to derank, have at it, it’s already past the gear threshold. Just never implement it across the board. A leader chain forming groups to his +8 until one is good enough to carry them is good for nobody.
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But you somehow have the time to do a slow run, but not doing another one some other time faster?
That’s some really contrived argument.
This is laughably absurd. The key deranking doesn’t mean you’ll go at super speed through the slightly lower key and then completely fail and go super slow at 1 higher.
Wow. 
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That gap S4 created works both ways.
Deflecting isn’t going to achieve anything.
Yeah it really doesn’t affect you getting into groups that much until the super sweaty parts. The issue is because there is much less keys to go around at this level. For example, there are people who will form groups where everyone has to have a 18 key to join, you run all 5 and share the keys amongst yourself because just getting a key of that level is a very hard thing to do.
Once the stakes get that high, people a much less likely to take anything other than the meta classes.
This is fair criticism. It could incentivize quitting earlier especially in lower keys. In higher keys like 15+ most people know when the key is finished cause you really just can’t mess that much. In lower keys on my alts, you’re right. I’ve seen tons of people leave before it is truly untimeable.
To this, I would say ya it would probably embolden keyholders to bail more often if the key wasn’t going well. However, the current system doesn’t penalize the other 4 to leave and the burden is only on the keyholder.
I think we would really have to see if this became an issue but I have a feeling the disconnects fails would easily make up for disgruntled keyholders.
No worries I appreciate you inquiring/arguing in good faith.
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MMORPGs are a massive time sink. They always have been. “I don’t have time” and playing a game that is a huge time sink shouldn’t be in the same sentence.
Bulldozer parenting, also called “lawnmower parenting” or “snowplow parenting,” refers to an overprotective and overly involved style of parenting where parents attempt to clear all obstacles and challenges from their child’s life.
You will see many examples of this on the forums in the form of requests like the OP here. Prime example.
They can always derank their key at a main city if they feel the key level is too hard. You still could penalize in other ways, like 1 piece of loot or lower ilvl on the loot, etc.
But the end of dungeon loot is nearly inconsequential, and that issue only grows the longer a season goes on. After a point that punishment only matters for alts, and even then barely so.
Apologies for posting again before you’ve responded to my last, if you even intended to.