A Rant - Keys should not derank

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

@Tortilla-area-52

if someone swaps to tank and you 1 tank 2 dps 1 heal

Probably the worst thing to do. It takes longer than just resetting, and if you do complete, you have given completion credit to the inconsiderate dude that left.

[Tortilla-area-52]

@Abendroth-zuljin

Probably the worst thing to do. It takes longer than just resetting, and if you do complete, you have given completion credit to the inconsiderate dude that left.

Lol it is the worst when leavers get the loot.

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

Happened to me on a low atal’dazar. Ret pally went offline after first boss, we just kept going hoping he’d be back, but after a while it’s like “gee, we’re already this far, be a shame if we quit”. Paladin never came back and got one of the loot.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

@Fauxstrasza-stormrage

If the only relevant difference is score (which is what people care about) it’s functionally the same thing.

Not needing a keystone is a pretty relevant difference as well. If what you’re saying is that keystones shouldn’t exist and the system should just let you start any dungeon at any level, I can at least understand why this idea would be strictly worse. But there would be no reason for keystones to exist if players could start any dungeon at any level and still have the same rewards.

@Hpellipsis-whisperwind

If keystones are not required to progress m+ score beyond a 10, then yes.

I’m not sure I understand why this would be the case. Players can still be just as selective as they want with their composition. Players would have needed to have timed the dungeon you’re running one level lower just to be eligible.

Or is the concern with the bar being raised by premades with a lot of time on their hands? That in order to compete with them as a PUG, you would be pushing levels that require increasingly more coordination. Perhaps there could be a title for keys and separate leaderboard for title without keys? That way you can keep using the key method where the bar will be lower?

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

@Dwelknarr-lothar

Not needing a keystone is a pretty relevant difference as well. If what you’re saying is that keystones shouldn’t exist and the system should just let you start any dungeon at any level, I can at least understand why this idea would be strictly worse.

Which would be an overall improvement but I did list the problems I have with keys that do not deplete.

But there would be no reason for keystones to exist if players could start any dungeon at any level and still have the same rewards.

Technically, it would force people into specific dungeons if they want to run said key compared to a system that lets people choose at will.

Keys that do not deplete enables carries, but just because that’s an issue, it’s not really a strong argument for an alternative system to fix that. (Where it enables people to run dungeons without loot, and just for score.)

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Dwelknarr-lothar

Or is the concern with the bar being raised by premades with a lot of time on their hands? That in order to compete with them as a PUG, you would be pushing levels that require increasingly more coordination.

This is indeed the concern I was addressing.

[Flashock-stormrage]

@Tortilla-area-52

People already leave keys.

@Tortilla-area-52

Again, there is no punishment for leaving keys currently. People do it all the time.

There is a punishment currently, it’s called key depletion.

Speculating that the amount of people leaving keys would increase if you remove the only “punishment” seems like a pretty straight forward concept.

If you’re argument is simply, “it won’t be that much worse”

I don’t think we should settle for that as a “fix”

[Tortilla-area-52]

@Flashock-stormrage

There is a punishment currently, it’s called key depletion.

Yeah there is punishment for the keyholder. Leaves and random disconnects can punish a keyholder for none of their fault.

@Flashock-stormrage

Speculating that the amount of people leaving keys would increase if you remove the only “punishment” seems like a pretty straight forward concept.

If you’re argument is simply, “it won’t be that much worse”

And your argument is it may be worse. But we don’t know either way on that one issue. And there are several other issues I think it would fix but I also don’t know. Just like we don’t know anything until we test and get data.

Don’t be afraid of change. You can always change back.

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

Don’t be afraid of change. You can always change back.

You can’t change back, not always. People move on to other games because the damage has been done.

It’s like opening pandora’s box.

[Tortilla-area-52]

@Fauxstrasza-stormrage

You can’t change back, not always. People move on to other games because the damage has been done.

It’s like opening pandora’s box.

Sure, a lot of people have already quit because they sit in queue and can’t find groups. I have multiple seasons. Luckily most people give wow another chance =)

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

And how many more will quit because failure rates spiked threefold?

[Tortilla-area-52]

We don’t know how much failure rates would rise. I’d rather be failing keys then sitting in group finder though, can tell you that.

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

If M+ pushing became an exercise in ramming my head against a wall because of inflation it wouldn’t be much fun either.

[Tortilla-area-52]

Meta classes already ram their head into keys though, not sure whats different really. Watched my spriest friend queue 6-7 uldaman 16s in one day.

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Tortilla-area-52

Meta classes already ram their head into keys though

So do better with spec balance. S1 dragonflight was a veritable utopia compared to what’s come after it and even that had problems. I’d still rather a system where people who aren’t playing day in day out with the same people have something resembling a chance.

[Tortilla-area-52]

@Hpellipsis-whisperwind

So do better with spec balance. S1 dragonflight was a veritable utopia compared to what’s come after it and even that had problems. I’d still rather a system where people who aren’t playing day in day out with the same people have something resembling a chance.

In the last 3 or so years, 6 months of the game has been relatively balance. Really not a solution imo.

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

They showed it could be done though, even if it was mostly through coincidence. It shows it can’t just be dismissed as a fantasy.

[Snowpine-ghostlands]

@Tortilla-area-52

relatively

This is a very important operative word in that sentence.

[Táurìel-moon-guard]

Negatives of Key Deranking

• Disconnects / ragequits punish players for no mistake of there own.

Nah this well deserved had to tank a key last night and the group refused to stack on me and we kept wiping like if you form a key and wont take advice from your healer or tank and we leave that isnt on us to many people forming keys who dont wanna spend 10 minutes to research mechanics.

Just cause you did it in heroic does not mean its the same in mythic. they need to make deranking more punishable by droping it 2-3 levels not 1.

[Tortilla-area-52]

@Táurìel-moon-guard

Nah this well deserved had to tank a key last night and the group refused to stack on me and we kept wiping like if you form a key and wont take advice from your healer or tank and we leave that isnt on us to many people forming keys who dont wanna spend 10 minutes to research mechanics.

It is fine if you are leaving cause they are incapable. I dont really see how people deserve to be “punished”.

Also the point you quotes was Disconnects or ragequits. This has nothing to do with people who leave keys because they are untimable. Unless you just had a temper tantrum cause people made mistakes and left early.