I feel like we are talking past each other. He isn’t suggesting removing loot for all of M+. Keys with loot would still exist.
What subsection? Under his idea, all keys would still give loot from M+2-infinity. The only M+ to not give loot would be the ones who mutually agree to use the font without a key.
What if they instead added the font option to +11 and up. This way it starts past tangible rewards and won’t inflate score for those who are looking for loot. It would also still not count for Title as I suggested.
I can see the score inflation being a problem, I’ll give you that.
He brings up a good point about score inflation, which I also have issues with. I think it would be helpful for the 2700-3400 crowd that pug for a challenge.
Them not offering loot helps no one, no one wants it or is in favor for it.
Keys not depleting leads to score inflation, people buying carries and just fishing for groups. (Which, this alternative system kinda solves.) But that’s not a big enough reason to create a separate system just for people.
It’s not just score inflation it’s everything inflation. More keys failed, more total time to complete a relevant key relative to now, more difficulty. It just makes pugging for any sort of tangible reward significantly worse.
Sure, and I’m certain there can be tweaks that help address this concern without removing the core of my idea. I’m in no way suggesting my idea as written is perfect.
At the same time, there are people in that range (and above) that have valid concerns with homework keys and not wanting to ever risk a key they need for score without a perfect group since they may never see that key again this week. So it’s kind of a catch-22 if this idea can’t give score at all for fear of score inflation.
I mean, there are a couple people in this thread who gave me at least a notional thumbs up on it, so I think “no one” is a bit off base. But even ignoring that, it would be completely optional. If you and all keys you run don’t want to use the system, don’t. I genuinely don’t get why systems that might help others in some way can’t exist if you don’t see any benefit in it for you…
I am not in favor of keys not depleting. If you go back through this thread, you’ll find that I am staunchly in opposition to this idea.
But there are times people feel pressure to never run a valuable key without having a perfect group because a single slip-up by anyone for any reason kills the key. Taking away at least one of the use cases people are concerned about without touching the existing key system seems like a positive.
Would that be the case with my alternate suggestion, though? To make sure it’s clear, my idea allowing players to run a M+ dungeon without the appropriate key would require the entire group to have timed the level before for that dungeon. If you’re going to run a dungeon in that manner, you will know for certain all characters had timed that dungeon one level lower (at least). There won’t be anyone whose only timed +18 was an Azure Vault now trying to put together a +19 Uldaman, unless they did so with a keystone.
This would significantly reduce the amount of time it takes for me to time keys. I spend hours just getting into keys. I could make a ton of progress.
As far as failing more keys, probably would increase cause I would actually be playing the game. I would be timing more as well.
It makes pugging way better for my situation. I could see how it would hurt fotm though since they essentially can requeue into any key they want currently.
People already leave keys. When someone leaves your key and you still can time, you would still lose the time spent, and have to spend time getting the key back up. So if you hate wasting time, this model still isn’t great for it.
It is speculation. The time lost to disconnects, rage quits, or just silly mistakes on keys imo would outweigh any speculated increase in leaving keys. Again, there is no punishment for leaving keys currently. People do it all the time.
I said you can time, or it has the potential, there is always room for mistakes.
Nothing about that is speculation. There are keys, that exist today, that are timeable and people leave them and they become untimable because you can’t tank, heal, or dps fast enough.
That’s what speculation is… I mean sure, the odds are definitely higher to time if they stay, but if they left because the group wiped on a +10 tyrannical boss, towards the end of it, sure you can still time, but that’s just speculation. If team failed a mechanic, who knows they won’t fail again, or on the next boss, or the next one.
If I’m having a bad time, I’m not staying until I know for sure.
There are keys that people that are impossible to finish with a person leaving. If your tank leaves after first wipe on a boss in say a +15 uldaman, you cannot finish the dungeon without tank or if someone swaps to tank and you 1 tank 2 dps 1 heal. If anyone leave a 18 uldaman before you even wipe, you cannot finish the dungeon.
There are keys again, that exists, that if people leave early definitively brick the potential to ever time. Without speculation, 100% it stops players from ever timing it. That exists. It isn’t speculative.
If you wanted to say that there are some keys that people leave and you you could potentially finish but you could only speculate. I also agree, those exist too.