There is a difference between throwing the first stone. It is why there are laws of self-defense and moral judgment on those who instigate.
Saying treat others with respect, or expect to be treated with disrespect isn’t a contradiction. It is saying you always should treat folks with respect. If they disrespect you or others first, then you can disrespect them.
Anyways last reply because this is getting horribly off topic. Take care.
They may and as others have stated and I have agreed to, I wouldn’t mind this being for keystones higher than 12 or push keys. I wouldn’t mind not rewarding loot on failure or docking ilvl on it as it does now I believe. It is a valid concern though I don’t disagree.
This isn’t about obtaining title. This is just purely playing the game. I can’t queue into keys past 15s pretty much because of my class. I can’t run my own key cause sometimes I need to save it for my team because of key scarcity. I get title range might go up and that might affect some players but non-meta folks around the 14-20 keystone are stuck in queue.
There isn’t much content in PvE after raid night is over that is challenging enough. It isn’t just about score, it about testing yourself against higher and higher challenges and being able to play the game.
People would be more willing to waste 10 minutes then potentially hours if their keys derank. There are several times when folks wait 30 minutes to hours in queue cause no meta class is queueing up. They could’ve run a couple keys in that time frame with the dozens of non-meta classes in queue. The other day a mage said “where are all the tanks at” with 2 prot warriors in queue. My resto druid buddy was streaming in discord. It was pretty funny.
Balancing is an issue no doubt. However, I don’t think blizzard will ever get this right. They have proven themselves incapable unfortunately. 5 out of the last 6 seasons have insane meta disparity.
But, you threw the first stone, today. Post 401. He responded to OP and you jumped in with the stone.
That’s my point. I get that he insulted you and you feel the need to defend yourself, but that doesn’t work when arguments of the past are in the past and you initiate the next.
I am OP. But he was being rude to another person discussing in good faith. Now read below.
He was being disrespectful towards other persons arguing in good faith. That is why I told him his communication was bad. There is no contradiction. Take care.
But that’s still not the average use case. Most players aren’t at a level where they need exactly a +18 Brackenhide. They might prefer a +8 Azure Vault, but if they find themselves in a +9 HoI, that would be fine as well. And then even when they do need +8 Azure Vault, there are far more of those floating around in the key pool than there are +18 Brackenhides.
And at the levels where the vast majority of players are, yes, self-regulating difficulty is very important. I’ll concede that at the higher keys you are concerned with, deranking is probably more of an issue. It might make sense for keys above a certain threshold to follow different rules.
But down at the levels where I am running, which is where the vast majority of keys are run, needing to time exactly a +8 RLP for any purpose is just not a common situation. Nor are +8 RLP keys available in the pool a rarity, either. There is little incentive for players to choose to derank their key; it’s likely that after enough times listing your key you’ll wind up with a group that can carry you to time it, then repeat the process at the next level.
I picked +15 somewhat arbitrarily, please don’t take too much stock in the number. My point is that at whatever threshold where players become completely beholden to meta, it’s unlikely that players are going to willfully divert from meta just because keys aren’t able to derank. A survival hunter isn’t likely to get many bites near where meta becomes de facto required by groups just because their key isn’t going to derank if the group doesn’t time it.
They weren’t arguing in good faith- they were being intentional jerks directly to me, personally- they made their intentions very clear, and then they left. 1 comment and they left. I responded back to them. Not you.
Regardless, I am seeing that multiple folks became personally attacked when I said “it’s okay to be a failure, but your keys should still deplete for failure”.
It was a blanket statement. I myself brick keys for groups. It sucks, but it’s the reality, and the key should deplete for that.
I don’t disagree that this is a problem that probably affects 5% of the player population like 3k+ io if that.
Eh I still don’t know if I agree. You can still derank in town if you fail or feel you’re out of your league. On the same point, it does affect higher keys as well but a +10 uldaman is much harder then a +10 vault. That being said, I really don’t care what they do with those key levels and whatever works best for that player base I’m all for it.
Sure thats fine. And you’re right at like 18 on some keys or 20 on some keys, you might just need the meta and you literally cannot time without it but these are really rare. For example, Squishvegans group running completely off meta is timing key 1 key level off or equal to the highest.
However, the major point you aren’t factoring in is now I can build my own groups and try to do the 18 with folks that will run with me without having to risk 1-5 hours of HW keys every time I try. I don’t have to just sit there in perma LFG spam or failing 17 and 16s due to mistakes, dcs, or rage just to get the chance again to try an 18.
The worry / concern is that people won’t, because they either don’t understand they’re out of their depth of selfishly believe they can counteract it by finding better players or playing the odds game. It leads to key inflation across every bracket and a likely sizeable increase in the ratio of keys attempted to keys failed.
I could see the former happening. However, the latter, I don’t know if that is necessarily a bad thing. It already exists today really. If you condemn an individual for only inviting better players or playing the odds game, then you would logically have to condemn meta stacking.
In both cases, you are selfish selecting only players and/or classes to get your key done. You also play the numbers game because you are able to play into keys.
You are, but if you fail due to whatever reason (Potentially your own inadequacy) you don’t just get to try again, you also are significantly less able to leapfrog your performance level by multiple keys, while if you remove depletion then your key level can only increase over time, regardless of your ability to perform in said keys.
Very true on your own key, true. But that is the issue with meta players. They get access to pugs keys. It is why fotm rerollers with high IO and poor play are so common. They just get carried.
This is the primary issue with keys right now. Meta gets to bruteforce their way through everyones keys, non-meta does not. Let everyone have that access.
Certainly, but you and I play way above the level of the average player and more crucially way above the reward ceiling.
What incentive does anyone have in TWW to lower their key below a 10 voluntarily? If they know that eventually they’ll get the 10 done if they keep trying with different people.
That’s fair, and like I said, perhaps it makes sense to have different rules for keys above a certain threshold. But by your own admission, such an environment only affects a minority of key players. IF there isn’t going to exist a different rule set based on whether the key is above or below a given threshold, having the system that best serves the majority is, unfortunately for you, the best business strategy. I’m all for there being a point where the rules change so players don’t feel they simply can’t take a flyer on a high-IO survival hunter for fear of losing their precious key.
One idea I floated years ago was to allow players to start any dungeon at any level the entire group had timed + 1 without a key that would only award score, no loot or vault credit. This way the groups that exist only to try to milk some score out of dungeons well beyond where they need any gear have no worries about keys at all, much less deranking and homework keys. They can just walk up to a font of power, choose +19, and go; and if they time it, they get the same score as if they put a +19 keystone into the font of power just without the loot possibility.