Assuming you’re right though, then everyone should deserve the reward.
They key holder for throwing enough posts out until something sticks, and the group for not just leaving before the key even began.
Just be realistic:
You do your first big pull and not enough damage is out (everyone uses damage meters at “big” keys, you can’t deny that.)
They point it out, if it’s not fixed they leave, or they just leave right off the bat.
If the healer can’t handle the first couple of pulls, even medium sized ones, people just leave. (This is something that happens NOW)
If the tank just keeps dying randomly and can’t do ANY or FEW big pulls, people just leave. (Again, this is something that happens NOW)
So in any scenario that’s just how it is.
If you’re PUGing in order to get carried you’ll have to keep queueing until you actually find people willing to do it, and it’ll take a VERY long time, except for when you land 4 angels.
If that’s how you choose to spend hours of game time then go for it, it’s your right.
If the group that’s with you feels bad or whatever and doesn’t want to leave then they should be rewarded, that’s their right.
Can you explain how I’m not 100% correct?
Keys not depleting just exacerbates the current problem with silent your key my carries that you graciously outlined for me.
There are people like me who will hack out the dungeon and give the clown their carry depending on how much free time I have, and how many keys for vault I need.
So again, I am 100% correct. Again. Keys should deplete. m+ is already tainted enough with toxic casuals.
You have every right to do that if you wish, go ahead and join a +11 from the 505 ilvl Mistweaver Monk who has only ever timed the +11 that they did last week.
If that’s how you choose to spend your time then so be it. If that’s how the other 3 PUGs choose to spend their time with you guys then so be it.
That was your choice that was made by you, with your limited game time, because you chose to make that call.
You’re talking as if you’re running poorly geared groups on purpose because you choose to, more power to you.
However this doesn’t change the fact that auto-depletion is bad.
It doesn’t prove it’s good either.
you’re just stating a personal stance on how you do things, which is great.
It’s not supporting anything towards the topic at hand.
Absolutely, and please accept my apology if that’s how my message came across.
My point is that “designing for eSports” is a criminally overused sentiment in gaming that gets thrown around for essentially any change someone deems worse for their experience. I cannot imagine what chopping the bottom 10 key levels does to eSports in any conceivable way, outside of the pressure it puts on getting title as you’ve articulated. And Blizzard could have very easily made changes at title range to achieve the same goal without the collateral damage we’ve seen at the lower end. I really think the title acquisition was just a side effect of the changes they made for goals totally unrelated to title chasing.
Sure, and for that player I’m not as concerned. If they keep bashing their heads against the wall, that’s on them.
But it’s already a challenge to pick out keys that are likely to succeed and not with the incomplete information players have at their disposal. Increasing the number of keys that are likely to fail to the pool just puts even more pressure on that incomplete information. The likely outcome will be fewer players that are capable of completing keys deciding to PUG, making the chance of failure for PUG keys rise even more.
Only if you start from scratch. If you complete someone else’s key you’ll get a +2 key out of the dungeon chest, but next week’s vault will be at the key level you ran or 1 less (if the group depleted that run). Any player that successfully completes a key higher than they are capable of completing without being carried once will have that level for the rest of the season if depletion doesn’t happen. Which leads to the increase in dead keys and players needing carried in LFG that I already talked about.
Raider.io is incomplete. It’s better than nothing, for sure. But even with good raider.io there are keys that do not complete (well below where failure is expected due to the sheer mechanical challenge of that level). You have no way to determine whether a player was a contributing member of their highest timed key or were carried to the finish line. You have no way to determine whether a player took 1 try or 100 tries to get that highest key timed; and if depletion weren’t a thing, players can keep listing their key indefinitely until they finally get 4 other players that can carry them to time it making that frequency far higher.
Even just from a UI perspective the number of keys that are likely struggle to succeed will go up. It will take more time to sift through the keys with leaders that have proven they can hack it as there are more keys from players that got a carry to obtain their key level listed in LFG.
It’s not just higher keys, though. Literally the entire key ecosystem above the lowest levels will be inflated from players completing keys they aren’t really qualified for. Trying to find a +5 for players that are in the level of a +5 will become harder, it’s not just people looking for +15s and up.
Do you think this is a good thing? Having the ability to leave keys is better for keeping worse behaviors at bay than not having it. But leaving a key is a colossal waste of time for at least one person in the group. I really don’t think we should be advocating for an environment in which leaving going up is basically a certainty.
Mentioned earlier but rage leavers / disconnects can waste significant amounts of time and can be of no fault to the key holder which takes the penalty. This affects every key level.
Accessibility is another issue. Lot of folks have to run their own keys until they get score so their IO wont match their skill / knowledge of the dungeons for some time (typically two weeks now to get fort and tyran scores). This leads to no invites or accessibility to keys you could complete. If you get your 10 key bricked from a leaver, disconnect, or mistakes, you have to run your +9 and waste 30 minutes of your time to get another chance for +10 vault rewards.
I think most people who are arguing against the removal of depletion have stated they would be okay with charges before depleting a key to insulate key holders from people trolling, raging, or disconnects. But that’s different from a stance that keys should never deplete.
I was responding to him because he suggested auto-depleting is bad. There are several arguments against auto-depleting, not a charge system, and some apply to both. I wouldn’t mind a charge system, its better than nothing but I still think no deranking at all, or depletion in his terms, is better.
You made up a hyperbolic situation and said I’m talking about my personal experiences?
What’s wrong with you?
I’m talking about people with my io or similar, and higher ilvl than me or similar, competing with me for dps when I’m the tank, to give you a 1to1…
As someone who’s been in top 1-8% many if not all seasons but this [bad]xpac. I’m talking about anyone who should be in keys appropriate to their metrics in every conceivable way without getting too sweaty about viewing their logs. And it turns out they are trolling, a paid character, or a carry.
None of which is the onus on me. and they shouldn’t be spamming keys that don’t deplete. Obviously.
Please calm down. Keys need to deplete upon failure. I know that might be a hard pill to swallow if you, yourself, are a failure.
The only failure here is your inability to talk to others with any iota of respect. Just because something disagrees with you doesn’t mean they are a paid actor, trolling, or a carry. I am none of those things and disagree with you.
I gave him the same iota of respect he gave me.
You need to calm your mouth too.
You don’t have to agree with me why people are bad at wow.
You can have your own excuses- that doesn’t matter.
Your opinion is still wrong regardless- Keys need to deplete upon failure for all the reasonable reasons I’ve graciously listed for you, and all the ones I can’t think of atm because you’re not worth any extra energy.
edit: insta-reply incoming, here we go… please tell us more about how we need to give respect where respect is not due, and all your excuses for failing keys that will win hearts and minds, and affect change.